Seven Proofs for the Natural Immortality of the Human Soul

Tim Staples' Blog ^ | September 24, 2014 | Tim Staples

[GonzoII]

Seven Proofs for the Natural Immortality of the Human Soul

The late Dr. Antony Flew—perhaps the greatest among atheist thinkers of the last 100 years—came to faith in God largely through his studies in philosophy and, most especially, science, as he recounted in his book written with Roy Abraham Varghese, “There is a God: How the World’s Most Notorious Atheist Changed His Mind.”

It was in 2004 that Dr. Flew rocked the world with his confession that he had come to believe in God. He made clear that he accepted deism, and not the God of the Bible, or of any other of the great world religions. But this in no way lessened the impact of his startling declaration. The reactions ranged from surprise, to disbelief, to even questioning whether Dr. Flew’s mental capacities were diminished, perhaps because of his age. He was 81 at the time of his “conversion.”

Let me assure you, as one who knows personally one of the men who walked alongside Dr. Flew on his journey toward truth, and who helped him to write the above-mentioned book, Roy Abraham Varghese, his radical change was very much real, his faculties were not diminished, and he was entirely free in his decision-making process.

It is interesting to note that in the second appendix of There is a God, there is a fascinating dialogue between Dr. Flew and New Testament scholar N.T. Wright on whether or not God has revealed himself to man, where Flew had this to say about Christianity:

I think that the Christian religion is the one religion that most clearly deserves to be honoured and respected whether or not its claim to be a divine revelation is true. There is nothing like the combination of a charismatic figure like Jesus and a first-class intellectual like St. Paul. … If you’re wanting Omnipotence to set up a religion, this is the one to beat (pp. 185–186).

Dr. Flew never came to accept Christ or Christianity, or any of the distinctively Christian teachings like the inspiration of Scripture, the Trinity, the divinity of Christ, the incarnation of Christ, etc. This is almost to be expected as they are dependent upon supernatural assistance and the acceptance of divine revelation. As a deist, Flew would have accepted none of these teachings.

But interestingly enough, Flew also never came to accept the immortality of the human soul. And this is a truth that is knowable by the natural light of reason apart from revelation. This makes me wonder if this may well have been the linchpin that, if understood and accepted, might have completed the foundation for Dr. Flew upon which the entirety of the revelation of God may well have been able to rest. Perhaps then Dr. Flew would have been able to accept the further light of revelation?

Perhaps.

Because Dr. Flew, unfortunately, died in 2010, just six years after his declaration of faith, I also wonder if time simply ran out before he would have come to the fullness of truth. This we will not know this side of eternity. But I do think we can rejoice in a reasonable hope that he was heading in the right direction when he passed away. Dr. Flew was truly a fascinating man. And, according to my friend Roy Abraham Varghese, he was a good man as well.

Our Reason Tells Us So

Dr. Flew was certainly not alone in his struggle with the concept of the natural immortality of the human soul. (I say “natural” because human beings uniquely possess an immortal soul by nature. That means, man does not need grace in order for his soul to live forever. It would do so naturally, even if he ends up in the isolation and emptiness of hell forever.) This is a point of difficulty for many skepetics. Thus, it is crucial for Christians to know how to explain it to skeptics. And to know that we don’t need a Bible to be able to do so.

The Bible certainly more than helps those who believe in its inspiration, and in the Church that has the authority to definitively interpret it. Through these great gifts, all can know the essential truths of the Faith, including the natural immortality of the human soul, both easily and infallibly. But this hardly helps when you are speaking to someone who doesn’t accept the Bible as God’s word.

The truth is, we can can demonstrate this truth through reason alone, i.e., through philosophy. But first we need to establish the fact that humans have souls at all, and define our terms.

Does Fido Have a Soul?

The soul is, by definition, the unifying and vivifying principle that accounts for the life and what philosophers call the “immanent action” of all living things. The word “immanent” comes from two Latin words that mean “to remain” and “in.” “Immanent action” means the multiple parts that comprise a living being are able to act “from within” in a unified way, and in accordance with its given nature, for the good of the whole being. The soul is what accounts for this unified action that is essential for there to be life.

This comes as a surprise to many Christians with whom I speak, but St. Thomas Aquinas tells us, and it follows from our definition of the soul above, that not only humans, but non-rational animals and plants have souls as well. Man alone possesses what St. Thomas calls a “rational,” or “spiritual” soul. Plants and animals possess “material souls” that, unlike human souls, are dependent upon matter for their existence. But they possess souls nonetheless.

To be precise, there are three categories of souls:

1. Vegetative – This category of soul empowers its host to be able to take in nutrition and hydration, grow, and reproduce others of its kind. A rock can’t do this!

2. Sensitive – An animal with a sensitive soul can also acquire sense knowledge and use locomotion to both ward off danger and to gather goods it needs to survive and thrive.

These first two categories of souls are material in nature. By that I mean, they are entirely dependent upon the material body for their existence. As St. Thomas says, “They are adduced from the potency of the matter.” When the host dies, the vegetative or sensitive soul ceases to exist.

3. Rational – Capable of all the above, the animal possessing a rational soul is capable of acquiring intellectual, or “spiritual,” knowledge as well, and of choosing to freely act toward chosen ends.

The question now becomes: how does any of this demonstrate the soul of man to be immortal?

What is Death?

In order to get where we need to go, we first have to define death. CCC 997 defines it as, “… the separation of the soul from the body”—an excellent definition. But perhaps a more precise philosophical definition is: “The reduction of a composite being into its component parts.” This is why I would say when Fido dies, you might want to get him out of the house and bury him. It won’t take long for him to start the process to becoming “reduced to his component parts.” And that process gets a bit messy!

However, a spirit, by definition, has no parts. There is nothing to be “reduced to its component parts.” Thus, that which is purely spiritual cannot die.

So for my first four proofs for the immortality of the soul, I am going to demonstrate it by showing the soul to be “spiritual” in nature. If I can do this, I will have accomplished the task at hand.

For my fifth, sixth, and seventh proofs, I will make my appeal through what we find in human experience down through the millennia that points us in the direction of man possessing an immortal soul.

The Soul, the Person, and the Body

The two principle powers of the soul are its power to know and to will. Why do we say these powers lie in the soul? In simple terms, it is because it is the entire man that comes to “know” or to “love” (love being the highest purpose of the will) not just “part” of him. This would seem to indicate that the same “unifying and vivifying principle” that explains man’s life, would also explain his power to know and to will.

But man is more than just a soul. He also directly experiences the “I” that unifies all that he is and all that he has done down through the decades of his life. This “I” represents the individual “person” that constitutes each human being.

Is there a distinction between the soul and the person? Yes. But it can be a bit tricky to demonstrate.

Perhaps it would best to demonstrate the distinctions by laying out some of the differences between the body, soul, and person.

There is no doubt that the body contributes to the soul’s ability to come to know. A damaged brain is a clear indicator here. The soul needs a properly functioning brain to be able to come to know anything, ordinarily speaking.

Yet, it is also interesting to note that according to philosopher and theologian, J.P. Moreland, man is much more than a body as well. Moreland provides:

“… neurosurgeon Wilder Penfield electrically stimulated the brains of epilepsy patients and found he could cause them to move their arms or legs, turn their heads or eyes, talk or swallow…”

But yet, Moreland says, the “patient would respond by saying, ‘I didn’t do that. You did.”’ Further, no matter how much probing and electrical prodding, Penfield found there is no place in the brain that can “cause a patient to believe or decide” (Lee Strobel, The Case for a Creator, p. 258.).

Thus, the “I,” or, the person, seems to use his body, or here, his brain, to be sure, but “he” is not determined by it.

We can also say with confidence that the “I” is not synonymous with the intellect and will, or the soul, either because “I” can struggle to remember, to know, or to exercise its will. There seems to be more to a person than just a body, or even just a soul. Man seems to be a body/soul composite. Both his body and soul contribute to the great and mysterious “I.”

The Seven Proofs for the Natural Immortality of the Human Soul

1. The Intellect Possesses the Power of Abstraction

St. Thomas Aquinas explained, “The operation of anything follows the mode of its being” (Summa Theologica, Pt. 1, Q. 75, art. 3). To put it in simpler terms: action follows being. One can tell something of the nature of a thing through examining its actions. Hence, the spiritual nature of the human soul; and therefore its immortality, can be proven through the exhibition of its spiritual power in human acts. One such “spiritual action” is the power of abstraction.

To use thomistic language once again, when a human being comes to know something or someone, let’s say, he sees a man, “Tim,” his senses engage the individual; “Tim,” through the immediate “accidental” qualities that he sees. By “accidentals,” we mean the non-essential, or changeable, aspects of “Tim” like his size, color, or colors, weight, etc. From this conglomeration of accidentals, his intellect abstracts the “form” of “man-ness” from that individual (This reminds me of a philosophy professor I had in college who seemed to have an inability to pronounce a noun without adding a “ness” to the end of it.).

This “form” the intellect abstracts is an immaterial likeness of the object thought about or seen. It is ordinarily derived from a particular object, like the man, “Tim,” as I mentioned above, but it transcends the particular individual. The form gets at the essence of “Tim.” It is that which is universal concerning “Tim,” the man. He is risible (he laughs), he reasons, he worships, and more. This is that which is changeless and applies not just to “Tim,” but to all men. And very importantly for our purpose, we must remember that this essential “form” abstracted by the intellect is a spiritual reality. It transcends the individual.

Now, there is a material likeness, or image, that is concrete and singular, impressed in the memory of man, but that is not what we are talking about here. Dogs, cats, birds, and bats have memory. Non-rational animals do not have the power to abstract the form of “man.” Only human beings can comprehend “man-ness” or “dog-ness.”

This is not to say the soul of a dog is not real. It is, as St. Thomas Aquinas says, a “real principle,” and it is “adduced from the potency of the matter.” This is analogous to elements formed into a compound or an atomic explosion caused from the potency of the matter used in the formation of a bomb. Certain kinds of matter exist in potency to other kinds of matter that when joined create elements, atomic explosions, or Fido! But only man (among animals on earth) has this power of abstraction that necessarily involves a spiritual principle.

Why is this crucial to understand? Well, let’s introduce yet another “form” here… “tree-ness.” “Tree” is defined as, “A woody perennial plant, having a single main stem or trunk arising from the soil and having branches and foliage.” This would represent “the form” that is common to all trees apart from any particular. I could burn the individual tree from which I abstract the form of “tree-ness,” and reduce it to ash so that there is no longer this particular “tree” in existence, but I can never burn “tree-ness” because it is “spiritual,” or “universal.”

Remember our philosophical principle? “Action follows being?” If the soul has this spiritual power to “abstract” the form of “tree,” or “man,” it must be spiritual. And if the soul is spiritual, it has to be immortal. It cannot be “reduced to its component parts.”

2. The Soul Forms Ideas of Realities That Are Immaterial

The human soul not only abstracts the forms of material entities encountered, but it also has the power to know the ideas or “forms” of immaterial realities like logical sequence, moral goodness, property rights, philosophical categories like “substance,” cause and effect, and more.

Where are these realities? What color are they? How big are they? How much do they weigh?

They have no color, size, or weight because they are spiritual—and by definition—immaterial. Sense image alone (like the Empiricists John Locke and David Hume say is the only source of knowledge) cannot account for these. We are not talking about the material world here.

To form an idea of something spiritual, again, requires a spiritual principle, i.e., the soul. If it’s spiritual, it can’t die.

3. The Will Strives for Immaterial Goods

Closely related to my first two proofs, just as the intellect has the power to abstract the “spiritual” forms of the things and beings it encounters, and to form ideas of immaterial realities, the will also has the power to strive for immaterial things, like prudence, justice, temperance, fortitude, etc. One cannot produce what one does not possess. There must be a spiritual; and therefore, immortal principle (the soul), to will these spiritual realities.

4. The Intellect Can Reflect Upon Its Own Act of Knowledge

It could not do so if it were material. A material faculty, such as the power of vision, only reacts in response to external stimuli. It could only be said to “perceive” inasmuch as one “part” was acted upon by another “part” of something else. When our intellect reflects on its own act of knowing, and we could add its own act of being as well, it is both subject and object of knowledge. The soul can only do this if it has no parts. A dog cannot reflect on its own act of knowing, or being. It just scratches! That is sense knowledge.

5. Man Has a Natural Desire to Live Forever

Aristotle gave us an extremely important philosophical principle when he said, “A potency without the possibility of actuality destroys nature.”

The existence of acorns necessitate the existence of oak trees. It is not that each individual acorn will be actualized and become an oak tree. That is clearly not the case. But if no acorns could be actualized, there would be no oak trees.

We could multiply examples here. A digestive system in animals necessarily means we can know there is food… somewhere out there. A female dog necessitates the existence of a male dog. If there’s not, then “dog” will be eliminated in fairly short order.

Thus, the non-rational animal seeks self-preservation, food and sex. Each of these is conditioned by time. Man has intellectual knowledge which is absolute. The “forms” are not conditioned to time as material knowledge is. Remember? The individual “tree” will die, but not the “form” or “idea” of tree that man alone possesses among creatures of earth. From this knowledge of the eternal springs a spontaneous desire to live forever. And this potency cannot exist in vain. That would be contrary to everything we see in nature.

6. The Testimony of Mankind Over the Centuries and Millennia

From ancient Egypt’s Book of the Dead, to Western Civilization’s Bible, every civilization, every culture, in all of human history has attested to the existence of an after-life.

Some will point out the very few exceptions—one being Hinayana (or Theravedic) Buddhism—that deny the existence of “spirit,” or the soul, to discount this our sixth proof. But to no avail.

Actually, the exception tends to prove the rule. And this, I would argue, is certainly the case with Hinayana Buddhism. Not only is this ancient form of Buddhism an anomaly in the world of religion, but the appearance of Mahayana Buddhism (that restored belief in “God” and “the soul”), very early in the history of Buddhism, and the fact that it is today by far the largest of the three main traditions of Buddhism, tends to demonstrate that man is so ordered to believe in the afterlife that errant thinking here or there over millenia can never keep its truth suppressed for very long.

7. The Existence of the Moral Law

My final proof for the natural immortality of the human soul is derived from the existence of the Moral Law that we can know apart from divine revelation. This is a true law knowable to all, and a law that man did not give to himself. And yet, it is often unpunished and the sanctions of law not carried out. Hence, there must be an eternity where all is rectified.

Necessarily rooted in the reality of the justice and wisdom of God who created both us and this that we call “Natural Law,” Plato said without the immortality of the soul there is no justice, which would be absurd. If there is a God who is just, then there must be final justice. Since final justice so often does not occur in this life, there must be a next life in which justice will be served.

If you liked this post, you will really like this… and this!

[Prophet2520]

Actually here is an online version of the book
http://sheldonemrylibrary.com/Thou%20Shalt%20Surely%20Die.pdf

[DouglasKC]

Of course when the bible is ACTUALLY consulted one very quickly sees that there is no such thing as an immortal soul:

1Ti 6:13 I urge you in the sight of God who gives life to all things, and before Christ Jesus who witnessed the good confession before Pontius Pilate,
1Ti 6:14 that you keep this commandment without spot, blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ's appearing,
1Ti 6:15 which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 1Ti 6:16 who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.

Nobody has immortality except Christ.

Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, Joh 3:15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

The choices are "to perish"...and the greek means to be fully destroyed...versus "eternal life". Immortality. Man without Christ does not have any kind of eternal life nor immortality.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—
1Co 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

A mortal can only put on immortality when Christ returns, at the last trumpet.

There is no "natural" immortality. For Christians the doctrine of the immortal soul WITHOUT Christ should be seen as blasphemous for it proposes immortality WITHOUT Christ.

Rom_6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Eternal life, immortality, is a gift from God. Not accepting that gift means that one is NOT immortal.

[CynicalBear]

>>The FALSE DOCTRINE of the "immortality of the soul" is one of Satan's greatest deceptions!<<

I would suggest that your understanding of scripture is lacking.

Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

If you think there is no existence after death you had better guess again.

[GonzoII]

You’re welcome.

[Yosemitest]

Twisting what I was referring to, are you?
Get a grip!

[CynicalBear]

Obviously what you were “getting to” was not clearly stated.

[Yosemitest]

You really should read more than one source.
For instance, take a look at this excerpt.

... (excerpt) ...

Are the Dead Conscious?
   Notice, now, Lazarus, with Abraham and all the saints who are Abraham's children, is to be resurrected at the time of Christ's coming. They shall live through the millennium. But the rest of the dead shall not live until the thousand years are past. The rich man, then, will not come back to life until a thousand years after Abraham, Lazarus, and all who are Christ's have been made alive.
   Will this rich man be conscious of the great lapse of time?
   Your Bible says, if you will believe what it says:
"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything . . . for the memory of them is forgotten" (Eccl. 9:5)
— that is, they have no consciousness while dead. They are totally unconscious! Job speaks of a dead man and says:
"His sons come to honour, and he knoweth it not; and they are brought low, but he perceiveth it not of them" (Job 14:21).
Isaiah says our father Abraham knows nothing of us, today (Isa. 63:16). David was inspired to write:
"His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; m that very day his thoughts perish" (Psalm 146:4).

   Many times people have died, and by the drug adrenalin or other methods the heart has been started beating again. Always they say they were totally unconscious — no dreams — no knowledge — just a total blank.
   The rich man, then, at the time of his resurrection, after the millennium, will come to consciousness, open and lift up his eyes, knowing absolutely nothing of the hours, days, and years since he died. To him it will be the next fraction of a second from the time — he died. It will seem to him as if he had gone immediately to this state or condition in which he finds himself rising up out of the grave.

What Is This FLAME?
   But when he is resurrected, he sees a flame which torments him. What is this?
   Now Jesus did, on other occasions, speak of perishing and being destroyed in gehenna fire. What is this? It is described in Revelation 20:14-15, as a lake of fire.
   Scripture everywhere describes the final fate of the wicked as being burned up. Their punishment is death by fire! It is this "lake of fire," which is "the second death," from which there shall be no resurrection! They remain forever dead! This death is for all eternity — eternal punishment — but it is not eternal punishing!
   Now, opening his eyes in his grave, this rich man SEES Abraham, and Lazarus in his "bosom" — his embrace! He also sees this awful flame of fire — this lake of fire which is about to destroy him forever! He is terrified!
   What happens when one is suddenly so horrified with fear? His mouth goes dry. His tongue sticks to his mouth and throat!
   The rich man cries out in this mental agony:
"Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my TONGUE; for I am tormented in this flame."

   Now if the rich man were in the kind of "hell" most people seem to believe, his whole body would be on fire — you would think he would have called for at least a bucket of water to put out the fire, wouldn't you?
   Look at this!
   How much water did he call for? He said to Abraham:
".. . Send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water."
Just a couple of drops — that's all the water he requested! Doesn't that strike you as strange?
   Why did he call for water? To put out the fires of all "hell"? — the kind of hell people would have you believe he was in? Ah, no! He only wanted a mere couple of drops of water on Lazarus' finger — why? —
"to 'cooL MY TONGUE'!"
That's what the rich man said! Open your own Bible again, and read it!
   The flame, he said, was "tormenting" him. This word "tormented," used in verses 24 and 25 is translated from the Greek word odunomai. This is defined in any Greek­ English lexicon as
"to cause pain, to pain, distress; pain of body, but also, pain of mind; grief, distress."

   Why, of course! This rich man opens his eyes in his grave in a resurrection. He is resurrected mortal, just as he was before he died — not immortal like Lazarus. He sees this lake of fire. Now he knows the frightful, the awful doom he is to be thrust into — to be burned up — destroyed! He is suffering mental anguish such as he never experienced in his lifetime. His tongue is dry. He breaks out in cold sweat. He cries for a little water on the tip of Lazarus' finger to cool his tongue! He is in a condition of weeping and gnashing of teeth!

The Final Hell Fire
   Now once again read this in your Bible. Read exactly what Jesus said, not what the "hell-fire" preachers have told you He said! Did Jesus say this rich man was going to suffer endlessly and forever — always burning — being on fire — yet never burning up? Did He? Of course not!
   There is not one word here about how long his anguish is to last.
   Jesus was saying these things to those who would not repent. What did He want to make them understand, when He gave this account about Lazarus and the rich man? Jesus answers this question for us in Luke 13:27, 28 where He said:
"Depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the Kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out."
Yes, they are going to be in exactly the same position as this rich man! Jesus is using him as an illustration to show these individuals what is to befall them. They are to be thrust out — into the lake of fire which shall consume them, leaving them neither root nor branch, as the Scriptures say.
   The wicked are going to be cast into the lake of fire. When they lift up their eyes in their resurrection, they shall know that they are doomed, now to be cast into the lake of fire to be burned up.
   This rich man cried out for help because of his mental and physical anguish — knowing what was now to befall him! He knew he was guilty! When a man realizes he is guilty, and faces his just and terrible retribution, the very first part of the body to be affected is the tongue, which dries out — seems to be on fire.
   What Is the Great Gulf?
   But Abraham and Lazarus were afar off, and no water was brought. The rich man had to suffer mentally for his sins. He had had his reward, in the material things he sought and craved, during his mortal lifetime.
   There is a great gulf fixed between this doomed sinner and all the glorified saints in God's Kingdom.

What is that great gulf?
   The gulf mentioned by Abraham which prevents the wicked from escaping death by hell-fire, and which also keeps the righteous from being burned, is immortality. Those who are immortal shall never die because they are born of God (Rev. 20:6). But human beings who have not been begotten and born by the Spirit of God are still flesh, subject to corruption and death. They can be burned by fire.
   Don't forget, this is a literal fire and the rich man is a human being composed of flesh and blood. Only the saved possess immortality as the gift of God (Rom. 2:7), but the wicked reap anguish and wrath that shall devour the adversary — fiery indignation (Heb. 10:27). What happens when a human body is being burned by a flame?
   There is a period of torture during which the fire consumes the body before the person dies. Then what about this rich man? Jesus didn't say he was immortal, for if he were he would be spirit and flames do not burn spirit. Fire is a physical process. It is combustion of matter.
   The rich man is a physical person just as you are.

Not Completed
   And Jesus leaves us in this account, with the rich man hearing the words of Abraham in his mind or conscience and tormented by the flames that are billowing about his body.
   A human body doesn't burn forever. It finally turns to ashes in a fire. Therefore we must go to other verses of the Bible to find out exactly what did happen after the short conversation recorded.
   Matthew 13:30 speaks of the wicked being gathered into bundles to be burned. What happens to tares (weeds) when in fire? They burn up!
   Again in Matthew 3:12, John warned the Pharisees that they would be burned up as chaff if they didn't repent. They are to be burned with unquenchable fire, too. A fire so hot that no amount of water put on it could put it out, because the flames would turn the water to steam.
   When God punishes the wicked the fire will be unquenchable! But that doesn't say it won't burn itself out when it has nothing more to burn. An unquenchable fire can't be put out, but it can burn itself out when it has consumed everything.
   Malachi 4:1, 3 speaks of this fire that will burn the rich man:
"For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.... And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this."

   That is the end of the wicked! They shall perish and not be any more.
"Into smoke shall they consume away" (Psalm 37:20).

   The rich man then, being mortal flesh, is going to burn up after being tormented in the flame. He is going to die the second death (Rev. 20:14). The wages of sin is death, not endless torment (Rom. 6:23).

The Rich Man's Brothers
   The rich man at last realized he was doomed! He now comprehended the gulf that existed between him and those who had been made immortal. Abraham had made clear the utter impossibility of the rich man crossing that gulf into immortality. He had had his chance during his lifetime. He had passed it up for this world's material riches and pleasures. There was no hope for him. He was now doomed to perish in this lake of fire.
   His last thought flashed finally to his five brothers. He gave one last cry to Abraham, begging him to send Lazarus to his father's house to plead with his brothers, lest they come to his terrible fate. Abraham replied they had the writings of Moses and the prophets. But the rich man realized they would not hear these scriptures.
    "Nay, father Abraham:" he screamed, "but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent"! (Verse 30.)
   The rich man knew Lazarus was raised from the dead! This one statement proves that the whole experience of Lazarus and the rich man was given by Jesus to show the truth of the resurrection — not to teach any immediate going to "heaven" or "hell" at the instant of death.
   Abraham replied:
"If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one ROSE from the dead" (verse 31).

   There it is! In plain language! The experience of Lazarus and the rich man shows the resurrection from the dead — not an instantaneous going to "heaven" or "hell." It is a resurrection from the dead — not from life. It shows mortality which dies, and is dead — not immortality which never loses consciousness and lives forever in an eternal punishing of the imaginary "hell." Jesus was showing a resurrection — or bringing back to life of one who was dead — of one who had no consciousness whatever of the lapse of centuries and millennia since his death.
   Far from illustrating immortality of the soul and the lurid eternally burning torture of Dante's fabled "hell," Jesus illustrates death — total unconsciousness through the centuries — resurrection from death and restoration of consciousness — and, finally, the second death in the lake of fire that shall totally destroy the wicked — in which they perish — and become ashes under the soles of the feet of the saved — the eternal punishment of death — eternal death — the SECOND death!

The Warning for YOU!    Finally, what is the real lesson?
   Jesus was preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom of God — the New Testament Gospel. He was showing salvation, the resurrection to eternal LIFE as the gift of God — inheritance of the Kingdom of God on this earth.
   The Apostle Paul plainly tells us that the New Testament Church of God is built upon the foundation of the apostles and the prophets, Jesus Christ being the chief corner stone (Eph. 2:20). Jesus said:
"I . will build my Church."
Paul reveals it was built on the foundation of the PROPHETS as well as the apostles!
   Jesus here teaches YOU that if you refuse to hear Moses and the prophets — and Moses was one of the prophets — you have no hope of salvation! The scriptures (Old Testament as well as New), according to II Timothy 3:15, are able to make us wise unto salvation. We are to take the whole Bible, not the New Testament only.
   Those who teach that the Commandments of God are done away teach a message of doom! Those who teach the pagan doctrine of the immortality of the soul — going off to "heaven" at death, or eternal punishing — teach contrary to what Jesus said!
   May you take heed, and hear all the Word of God!

[Yosemitest]

Thanks for the link,.

Thou shalt surely die Paperback – January 1, 1978
by G. Marsh Hilbourne (Author), Micheal T. Wark (Author)

[CynicalBear]

>>You really should read more than one source.<<

So scripture is not authoritative enough for you! Got it.

>>Are the Dead Conscious?<<

Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

All of mankind will be resurrected.

Acts 24:15 having hope toward God, which they themselves also wait for, that there is about to be a rising again of the dead, both of righteous and unrighteous;

Some to eternal punishment.

Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment (kolasis): but the righteous into life eternal.

kolasis - chastisement, punishment, torment

Also used here.

Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

So you think the wicked just get annihilated and that's the end of them?

Revelation 14:11 The smoke of their torment will rise forever and ever, and they will have no relief day or night, for they have worshiped the beast and his statue and have accepted the mark of his name."

Take those Herbert W. Armstrong books and teaching and chuch them in some fire somewhere.

[Yosemitest]

"Some to eternal punishment."

That's correct.
Once destroyed and converted to "... ashes under the soles of your feet ... " they will no longer be tormented.
So don't let the devil deceive you.
Stick to the logic, and don't call the messenger into question unless there is a fallacy in his logic.
To do that ~ makes you look sophomoric, ~and unexperienced in "DEBATE" .

[Yosemitest]

One other thing:

IF you CHOOSE to follow " the great whore that sitteth upon many waters " into HELL,
REMEMBER
YOU WERE WARNED
AND CALLED ~ TO COME OUT OF HER .

I SAY AGAIN:

"Come out of her, my people,
that ye be not partakers of her sins,
and that ye receive not of her plagues.
For her sins have reached unto heaven,
and God hath remembered her iniquities. "

[DouglasKC]

Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

What is everlasting? The fire. Who was it prepared for? The devil and his angels...demons. Says nothing about man having eternal life BEFORE Christ grants it to us.

Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Completely agrees with:

Rom_6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The penalty, the punishment, for sin is death. The gift of God is eternal life. Man does not have immortality without Christ. Yet many Christians say we don't need Christ for immortality.

Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

What goes up forever? The smoke. The smoke of their punishment. To believe that this is referring to immortal men being burned up pre-supposes that the rest of the bible is wrong. It's always been understood that the wicked are burned up, that they die:

Mal_4:1 "For behold, the day is coming, Burning like an oven, And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up," Says the LORD of hosts, "That will leave them neither root nor branch.

The wicked are burned to stubble. Little bits of ash.

The bible is clear. Man is not immortal and cannot be immortal or eternal without going through Christ...without being a believer in Jesus Christ.

[CynicalBear]

>>they will no longer be tormented.<<

Revelation 14:11 The smoke of their torment will rise forever and ever, and they will have no relief day or night

>>So don't let the devil deceive you.<<

I didn't. I just showed you were scripture shows the words of Armstrong are from Satan.

[CynicalBear]

>>Stick to the logic, and don't call the messenger into question unless there is a fallacy in his logic.<<

Well, let's look at some of Armstrong's false teaching.

"The Hebrew for God is Elohim, a uniplural noun, such as the words family, church, group ... And so, in truth, God is not merely one personage or even limited to a 'Trinity,' but is a family" (The Good News, February, 1979, p. 1).

"The doctrine of the Trinity is false ... Elohim is the divine family -- only one family, but more than one divine Person ... So the eternal Father is a Person, and is God. Jesus Christ is a different Person -- and is God. They are two separate and individual Persons ..." (The Missing Dimension In Sex, p. 32).

Also, the Holy Spirit is not a person, but an active force emanating from God. Armstrong taught that the Bible reveals "two Personages coexisted and nothing else did. No third Person is mentioned -- no 'Ghost'" (Mystery of the Ages, p. 37).

Claims that before Jesus was conceived by Mary, He was not the Son of God, and therefore, is not equal with God the Father -- Jesus only became a Son of God by His resurrection. It is also claimed that the Blood of Christ does not finally save anyone, but it saves merely from the death penalty of sin. "Christ is the Yahweh of the Old Testament" (The Plain Truth, Jan., 1955, p. 7).

"Hence, we see that He was not the 'Son' of God until He was born of the virgin Mary" (The Plain Truth, July/August, 1955, p. 4).

"Now notice carefully God the Father did not cause Jesus Christ to get back into the body which had died" (The Plain Truth, April, 1963, p. 10).

Need I go on? Follow that apostate if you wish but don't expect those who are true followers of Christ to believe you.

[CynicalBear]

One other thing:

Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Armstrong said the salvation is dependent on works. That is not what the apostles taught.

[DouglasKC]

Rev 14:9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand,
Rev 14:10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

"No rest day or night" is referring to later events of the wrath of God...in chapter 16:

Rev 16:1 Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, "Go and pour out the bowls of the wrath of God on the earth."
Rev 16:2 So the first went and poured out his bowl upon the earth, and a foul and loathsome sore came upon the men who had the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image.

The rest of the chapter shows how and why those who worship the beast have no rest day or night...it's because the wrath of God is poured out on them in the end time.

[CynicalBear]

Acts 24:15 having hope toward God, which they themselves also wait for, that there is about to be a rising again of the dead, both of righteous and unrighteous;

Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

2 Thessalonians 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction (olethros) from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

olethros - 3639 /ólethros ("ruination") however does not imply "extinction" (annihilation). Rather it emphasizes the consequent loss that goes with the complete "undoing." [http://biblehub.com/greek/3639.htm]

[CynicalBear]

>>"No rest day or night" is referring to later events of the wrath of God...in chapter 16:<<

That doesn't work at all. The "events of the wrath of God" do not last "forever and ever".

[DouglasKC]

>>"No rest day or night" is referring to later events of the wrath of God...in chapter 16:<< That doesn't work at all. The "events of the wrath of God" do not last "forever and ever".

Neither does the wrath of God. Scripture doesn't say that the have no rest day or night forever.

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.

It says the smoke ascends forever and ever. It doesn't say they have no rest forever and ever. You're reading that into the second part.

[DouglasKC]

2 Thessalonians 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction (olethros) from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; olethros - 3639 /ólethros ("ruination") however does not imply "extinction" (annihilation). Rather it emphasizes the consequent loss that goes with the complete "undoing." [http://biblehub.com/greek/3639.htm]

You're arguing against Malachi (and other scriptures) which clearly show that man is going to be burned up like stubble...into ash.

In addition you're advocating that man can have immortality without receiving the gift of immortality from Christ.

In addition Vine's Expository Dictionary says about oltethros says that it means "ruin, destroy, death, for the destruction of the flesh, said of the external ills and troubles by which the lusts of the flesh are subdued and destroyed"

In addition:

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

The word translated "perish" means absolute destruction, to destroy full, to kill.