Posted on 11/09/2014 3:09:29 PM PST by NYer
If someone were to ask you how many Catholic Churches there are in the world, what would be your response? Not small ‘c’ churches referring to church buildings, but rather, Church with a capital ‘C’, indicating the grouping of believers who call themselves Catholic. You may very well respond to the question that there is one Catholic Church and to a large extent you would be correct. One can look to the Scriptures to see that the Lord deliberately founded a living Church built on his Apostles in order that his teachings and sacraments would continue down through time. Indeed the word Church comes out of the Greek verb ‘to gather together’, so the Church at its heart is a gathering of people.
While there is one Catholic Church though, that Church is made present in 23 Churches. Yes, that is correct, there are 23 Catholic Churches, and only one of those Churches is the Western, or Latin Church. The other 22 Churches are collectively termed the Eastern Catholic Churches but they are by no means all the same. Some of the Eastern Churches include the Melkite, Maronite, Ukrainian and Coptic Churches. Nor are these Eastern Churches mere annexes of the Latin Church. Each of the 22 Eastern Churches are autonomous and self-governing with their own Patriarch, Major Archbishop or Bishop. While these Churches were born in places such as the Middle East, India and Eastern Europe, they are not primarily cultural groups in the same way as one might be a French Catholic or an Indonesian Catholic (both of whom are still members of the Latin Church). Each of the 22 Eastern Churches preserve unique liturgical, devotional and theological traditions that demonstrate the authentic universality of the Catholic Church. For the most part, the Eastern Catholic Churches choose their own Bishops yet they remain Catholic because they are in full communion with the successor of Peter.
But how did the Eastern Catholic Churches come about? First the obvious. Jesus was not a citizen of Rome and he did not speak Latin (or English). He lived and ministered in the Middle East which was in his time under the Rule of the Roman Empire. For close to 300 years after Jesus, the new Christian religion suffered heavy persecution at the hands of that Empire. It was the baptism of the Emperor Constantine in 313AD and the eventual declaration of Christianity as the official religion of the Empire which saw the Christian faith injected into the Western world in a way that shaped deeply the Europe we know today. However, while the structure of the Roman Empire shaped the way that Western Christianity would pray and think, Eastern Christianity continued to grow and take shape in its own place, understanding itself differently yet preaching the same Christ. Unfortunately these differences in tradition and mindset were not always understood by the other, and in 1054 the Christian Church was split by the tragic misunderstanding of the great schism where the West excommunicated the East, and the East excommunicated the West, giving rise to the division known today of Catholic and Orthodox. While the Orthodox Churches have a valid priesthood and sacramental system, the fundamental difference is that the Orthodox do not recognise the Bishop of Rome as having the kind of teaching and governing authority which the Catholic Church claims.
For almost four hundred years after the schism the divisions continued without any real healing or attempt at understanding, but slowly some groups within the various Orthodox Churches felt it important to restore communion with the Catholic Church. The reunification of individual Eastern Churches began in the 16th century with the latest reunification as recently as 1930. The restorations of unity have not always been understood by the hierarchy of the Western Church with numerous examples of Eastern Catholic Churches forced to take on Western Church liturgical and devotional practices. The Second Vatican Council though spoke strongly about the need for the Catholic Churches of the East to maintain their identity. Some decades later, Pope John Paul II famously wrote about the Catholic Church needing to breathe again with both lungs, East and West.
The Eastern Catholic Churches continue to struggle. In their homelands many are persecuted severely and in their new lands of migration these Churches are often still misunderstood and cast to one side, being thought of as multicultural Latin Catholics. All people would do well to better understand the breadth of the 23 Catholic Churches and see in them a living demonstration to the full richness of the Church of Jesus Christ.
To whom were the “Oracles of God” committed?
Romans 3:
[1] What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
[2] Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
Hebrews 5:
[9] And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
[10] Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.
[11] Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.
[12] For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
[13] For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
[14] But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
1Peter 4:
[11] If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
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The millennial reign will be a return to rule under the Oracles of God, for all who dwell upon the Earth.
Thus a return to that pure language for all who are subject thereto.
Prophecy means things, its not just a bag of loose words whose meaning is subject to broad interpretation.
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But the new/ final covenant was revealed in Greek.
I'm sorry, I don't recall ever mentioning Oracles either way — and is there anything saying what language they'd use.
Thus a return to that pure language for all who are subject thereto.
And you've yet to prove that pure language
is (a) a spoken language and not (e.g.) free of all guile, (b) that Hebrew is somehow special, and (c) that specialness requires God to use that language.
Prophecy means things, its not just a bag of loose words whose meaning is subject to broad interpretation.
I never said that prophecy doesn't mean anything; I just doubt that you particular interpretation is accurate.
Hebrew is the language that Yehova spoke, and inscribed, at Sinai.
What more evidence could anyone need?
No, no apostle spoke Greek.
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He also spoke Aramaic, in fact he did so on the cross.
and inscribed, at Sinai.
Considering that the purpose was to communicate with the Hebrews, doesn't it make sense that God would use Hebrews — if his purpose was to Japanese, wouldn't He use Japanese? If his purpose was Greek, wouldn't He use Greek? — And indeed, this is what we see at Pentecost: the people that heard God's message heard it in their own native language.
Why? — Why would God make them hear in their own language rather than making them understand Hebrew if it was the Hebrew that was important?
Obviously it wasn't; what was important? — The message, the one people heard in their native tongue, was this:
But Peter, standing with the eleven, raised his voice and addressed them, “Men of Judea and all who live in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and listen to what I say. Indeed, these are not drunk, as you suppose, for it is only nine o’clock in the morning. No, this is what was spoken through the prophet Joel:So, this message is the thing that is of import, not the language.‘In the last days it will be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams. Even upon my slaves, both men and women, in those days I will pour out my Spirit; and they shall prophesy. And I will show portents in the heaven above and signs on the earth below, blood, and fire, and smoky mist. The sun shall be turned to darkness and the moon to blood, before the coming of the Lord’s great and glorious day. Then everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.’
“You that are Israelites, listen to what I have to say: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with deeds of power, wonders, and signs that God did through him among you, as you yourselves know— this man, handed over to you according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of those outside the law. But God raised him up, having freed him from death, because it was impossible for him to be held in its power. For David says concerning him,‘I saw the Lord always before me, for he is at my right hand so that I will not be shaken; therefore my heart was glad, and my tongue rejoiced; moreover my flesh will live in hope. For you will not abandon my soul to Hades, or let your Holy One experience corruption. You have made known to me the ways of life; you will make me full of gladness with your presence.’
“Fellow Israelites, I may say to you confidently of our ancestor David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. Since he was a prophet, he knew that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would put one of his descendants on his throne. Foreseeing this, David spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, saying,‘He was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh experience corruption.’
This Jesus God raised up, and of that all of us are witnesses. Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this that you both see and hear. For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he himself says,‘The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.”’
Therefore let the entire house of Israel know with certainty that God has made him both Lord and Messiah, this Jesus whom you crucified.”
What more evidence could anyone need?
And again, Pentecost refutes your assertions.
Where did I say spoke?
The NT was written in Greek and it is the final covenant.
But since you asked the entire area had been under Hellenic rule prior to Roman rule. You are also aware that the reason for the rabbinical school at Jamnnia to disregard the Septuagint was that hey felt the Hebrew/ Aramaic language was being lost. They also discarded the NT precisely because (among other things) it was written in Greek.
No, the NT is no covenant; it is a collection of epistles, and of accounts of Yeshua’s Earthly ministry.
The covenants are all described in the ancient Hebrew scriptures, and Yeshua’s spilled blood is the fulfillment of the promised renewal of the covenant of Sinai in sinless blood of a man.
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No, Yeshua’s words on the cross were all in Hebrew.
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>> “Why would God make them hear in their own language rather than making them understand Hebrew if it was the Hebrew that was important?” <<
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Perhaps that is exactly what he did. How would any of them know that they were actually understanding the pure language of Yehova, as long as they were understanding it?
They could only conclude that the apostles were speaking their own language if they understood it, but it is obvious that the apostles were not speaking anything but Yehova’s language.
Understanding comes only to those that truly desire it.
Strong delusion comes to those that desire it too!
The quotes you post affirm my position.
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Not even close and you disregarded my other salient points.
Really?
What language is "Eli, Eli, Lemana Shabakthani!"? (Matt 27:46) returns Aramaic.
>> Why would God make them hear in their own language rather than making them understand Hebrew if it was the Hebrew that was important?”
>
> Perhaps that is exactly what he did.
Now you contradict the scripture, which say:
Ridiculous — You are claiming that a man would not be able to recognize his own language? I had a college professor from Korea [IIRC] who had been in the US so long that he'd forgotten much of his native language — but he could still recognize it by ear.
They could only conclude that the apostles were speaking their own language if they understood it, but it is obvious that the apostles were not speaking anything but Yehova’s language.
Except the scripture says, three times, that it's other languages… not Hebrew.
Now, why do you insist on calling the Word of God a lie?
Understanding comes only to those that truly desire it.
Strong delusion comes to those that desire it too!
The quotes you post affirm my position.
Really?
Isn't your assertion that Hebrew is superior to other human languages and contradicting the record of Pentecost in effect calling that record, which is in scripture, flawed or a lie or a delusion?
Pentecost clearly refutes your assertion/hypothesis and yet you continue to make excuses for it. Why?
John 4:23 — Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.
Now, why do you insist God, who seeks people to worship him in spirit and truth would require them to do so in a language which they wouldn't know?
Indeed, why should Spirit be bound by language at all? Or, if Hebrew is so superior, why can't it express what the Holy Spirit intercedes? (Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words.
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Do you intend to say that other languages cannot express truth?
Do you intend to say that the spirit is bound by language? Then why is speaking in tongues a gift of the spirit? If language were greater then spirit it could not be overcome by a spiritual gift.
Have you ever thought about “prayer language?”
(1Cor 14)
Apparently Paul thought language important.
The translation you use for posting changes the meaning from normal translations. In John 4:23, “in spirit,” as most translations say, is different than “in the spirit” in a grandiose way. In John 3:8 Yeshua tells Nicodemus that those that are “born of the spirit” will be able to move invisibly, like the wind, so this is a point of importance.
Revelation 1:10 gives a special importance to the phrase “in the spirit.”
Nonsenseg.. The understanding was that Torah is taught every week in the local synagogue. It takes time to learn how to walk in the truth. The anti-Torah view creates a false dichotomy and negates the bulk of scripture. The tail is wagging the dog. David wrote”I hate every false way, and every one of your righteous statutes is everlasting.” Yeshua himself said the same thing in Matthew 5. Torah is forever. The Temple is going to be rebuilt in Jerusalem, soon. The King Messiah will dwell in Jerusalem and teach in the Temple. The Temple Service will be active and all nations will gather there to worship HaShem and celebrate the Festivals. You don’t have to be circumcised in order to be “saved” because Avraham Avinu was justified by faith, but if you want to go up to the Temple to look upon the Mashiach you will have to be circumcised. It’s up to you.
Read your own post; you’re confused!
What anti-Torah view?
Either the levitical law requiring circumcision, diet, etc was laid upon the gentiles or it was not.
Acts 2 plainly says that it was not — the pouring out of the same Holy Spirit on the uncircumcised gentiles later (Acts 10:45) astounded the jews that were with Peter why would that be unless they were of the same mind as you?
The tail is wagging the dog. David wrote ”I hate every false way, and every one of your righteous statutes is everlasting.” Yeshua himself said the same thing in Matthew 5. Torah is forever.
James, the brother of Jesus said this:
You do well if you really fulfill the royal law according to the scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” But if you show partiality, you commit sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it. For the one who said, “You shall not commit adultery,” also said, “You shall not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery but if you murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty. For judgment will be without mercy to anyone who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment.This echos part of Matt 5, which you reference:
(v. 7)Let me ask this of you: Does your stance promote mercy? Or is it something that you use to be better, more holy, than others?
Blessed are the merciful, for they will receive mercy.
In Mat 7:1 Jesus says this: Do not judge, so that you may not be judged. For with the judgment you make you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get.
Now I know that I am not very merciful — but how much less merciful is it for you to impose a law that cannot be kept on your fellow man? How much does it deny the work of Jesus in fulfilling the Law and the Prophets for you to sit in judgement of your fellow man, whom you claim brotherhood through Jesus with, and not show any love?
Does the wisdom you proclaim of the torah bring people towards Jesus, or does it drive them away?
(James 3:13-18)Is your heart toward God, or is it against your fellow man?
Who is wise and understanding among you? Show by your good life that your works are done with gentleness born of wisdom. But if you have bitter envy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not be boastful and false to the truth. Such wisdom does not come down from above, but is earthly, unspiritual, devilish. For where there is envy and selfish ambition, there will also be disorder and wickedness of every kind. But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruits, without a trace of partiality or hypocrisy. And a harvest of righteousness is sown in peace for those who make peace.
| Isaiah 58 | Galatians 5 | 1 John 2:7-11 |
Shout out, do not hold back!
Lift up your voice like a trumpet!
Announce to my people their rebellion,
to the house of Jacob their sins.
2 Yet day after day they seek me
and delight to know my ways,
as if they were a nation that practiced righteousness
and did not forsake the ordinance of their God;
they ask of me righteous judgments,
they delight to draw near to God.
3 “Why do we fast, but you do not see?
Why humble ourselves, but you do not notice?”
Look, you serve your own interest on your fast day,
and oppress all your workers.
4 Look, you fast only to quarrel and to fight
and to strike with a wicked fist.
Such fasting as you do today
will not make your voice heard on high.
5 Is such the fast that I choose,
a day to humble oneself?
Is it to bow down the head like a bulrush,
and to lie in sackcloth and ashes?
Will you call this a fast,
a day acceptable to the Lord?
6 Is not this the fast that I choose:
to loose the bonds of injustice,
to undo the thongs of the yoke,
to let the oppressed go free,
and to break every yoke?
7 Is it not to share your bread with the hungry,
and bring the homeless poor into your house;
when you see the naked, to cover them,
and not to hide yourself from your own kin?
8 Then your light shall break forth like the dawn,
and your healing shall spring up quickly;
your vindicator[a] shall go before you,
the glory of the Lord shall be your rear guard.
9 Then you shall call, and the Lord will answer;
you shall cry for help, and he will say, Here I am.
If you remove the yoke from among you,
the pointing of the finger, the speaking of evil,
10 if you offer your food to the hungry
and satisfy the needs of the afflicted,
then your light shall rise in the darkness
and your gloom be like the noonday.
11 The Lord will guide you continually,
and satisfy your needs in parched places,
and make your bones strong;
and you shall be like a watered garden,
like a spring of water,
whose waters never fail.
12 Your ancient ruins shall be rebuilt;
you shall raise up the foundations of many generations;
you shall be called the repairer of the breach,
the restorer of streets to live in.
13 If you refrain from trampling the sabbath,
from pursuing your own interests on my holy day;
if you call the sabbath a delight
and the holy day of the Lord honorable;
if you honor it, not going your own ways,
serving your own interests, or pursuing your own affairs;[b]
14 then you shall take delight in the Lord,
and I will make you ride upon the heights of the earth;
I will feed you with the heritage of your ancestor Jacob,
for the mouth of the Lord has spoken. |
For freedom Christ has set us free. Stand firm, therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery. Listen! I, Paul, am telling you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no benefit to you. Once again I testify to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obliged to obey the entire law. You who want to be justified by the law have cut yourselves off from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. For through the Spirit, by faith, we eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything; the only thing that counts is faith working through love. You were running well; who prevented you from obeying the truth? 8 Such persuasion does not come from the one who calls you. A little yeast leavens the whole batch of dough. I am confident about you in the Lord that you will not think otherwise. But whoever it is that is confusing you will pay the penalty. But my friends, why am I still being persecuted if I am still preaching circumcision? In that case the offense of the cross has been removed. I wish those who unsettle you would castrate themselves! For you were called to freedom, brothers and sisters; only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for self-indulgence, but through love become slaves to one another. For the whole law is summed up in a single commandment, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” If, however, you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another. Live by the Spirit, I say, and do not gratify the desires of the flesh. For what the flesh desires is opposed to the Spirit, and what the Spirit desires is opposed to the flesh; for these are opposed to each other, to prevent you from doing what you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not subject to the law. Now the works of the flesh are obvious: fornication, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, anger, quarrels, dissensions, factions, envy, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these. I am warning you, as I warned you before: those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. By contrast, the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. There is no law against such things. And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. If we live by the Spirit, let us also be guided by the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, competing against one another, envying one another. |
Beloved, I am writing you no new commandment, but an old commandment that you have had from the beginning; the old commandment is the word that you have heard. Yet I am writing you a new commandment that is true in him and in you, because the darkness is passing away and the true light is already shining. Whoever says, “I am in the light,” while hating a brother or sister, is still in the darkness. Whoever loves a brother or sister lives in the light, and in such a person there is no cause for stumbling. But whoever hates another believer is in the darkness, walks in the darkness, and does not know the way to go, because the darkness has brought on blindness. |
The Temple is going to be rebuilt in Jerusalem, soon. The King Messiah will dwell in Jerusalem and teach in the Temple. The Temple Service will be active and all nations will gather there to worship HaShem and celebrate the Festivals. You don’t have to be circumcised in order to be “saved” because Avraham Avinu was justified by faith, but if you want to go up to the Temple to look upon the Mashiach you will have to be circumcised. It’s up to you.
Ah, so you call Paul a liar:
Gal 5:6 — For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything; the only thing that counts is faith working through love.
And Peter:
Acts 10:28 — “You yourselves know that it is unlawful for a Jew to associate with or to visit a Gentile; but God has shown me that I should not call anyone profane or unclean.
And, arguably, Jesus:
John 5:24 — Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.
(Note, only hearing and believing are what Jesus requires for one to cross from death into life; why do you seek to add more? Are you greater than Jesus?)
Thought you might be interested in some of the discussion on this thread.
Well, I don’t like to get into silly wordgames.
It’s standard evangelical practice to affirm that there exists one small-c catholic capital-c Christian church.
There’s been a lot of historical bad blood between various denominations. But, to be fair, nothing that looks like a certain other famous world faith. I’d infinitely sooner deal with snooty churchmen, from whom I can walk away annoyed but unharmed, than someone who will chop my head off.
The bible allows currently for both gentile and Jewish flavors of Christian practice. At some point in the future, the Jewish side of Christian practice, which has almost vanished, will come back to dominance. Then the scriptures which portray gentiles coming into the Jewish fold (and not just as Noahites either) will be literally fulfilled.
Ecclesiastes 3:11, folks. He has made all things beautiful IN THEIR TIME. Not before their time. And He will not be late either.
People should be less proud.
Really? What was it?
We know it's not the "keys to the kingdom" because those were given to all of the Apostles when they were assembled. (The "keys" were described to Peter as the power to bind and loose on heaven and Earth, Matthew 16:19, but not delivered to Peter alone, but to all of the Apostles, John 20:21-23).
So what other authority was given with Peter's successors mentioned?
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