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To: daniel1212
That was very salacious, but in it are terrible misrepresentations. You should research how much of that has objective evidence behind it, especially in regards to Alexander's sexuality.

But it's great that you read this post, because people like you are my target audience! I can only hope that you read the rest of the series, too! :)
8 posted on 10/27/2014 7:40:47 AM PDT by matthewrobertolson
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To: matthewrobertolson; daniel1212
That was very salacious, but in it are terrible misrepresentations. You should research how much of that has objective evidence behind it, especially in regards to Alexander's sexuality.

Is it your plan to "objectively" rehabilitate the reputations of every one of the "bad" popes starting with one of the objectively worst? Shall we ignore history so that Roman Catholicism might sweep under the proverbial rug all the debauchery, depravity and rank hypocrisy that marked the condition of this church leading up to the Reformation??? That "cat" has long been out of the bag, no sense trying to pretend it can be effectively stuffed back in.

But it's great that you read this post, because people like you are my target audience! I can only hope that you read the rest of the series, too! :)

On the contrary, it appears that your audience would be those who are not as knowledgeable as Daniel1212. You're more preaching to choir than winning any converts based on deception, semantics and rationalizations. How about reading additional resources such as The Vatican Billions - Two Thousand Years of Wealth Accumulation. Perhaps you can learn something as you target others with lipstick covered pigs?

10 posted on 10/27/2014 12:42:07 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: matthewrobertolson; Alex Murphy; boatbums
That was very salacious, but in it are terrible misrepresentations. You should research how much of that has objective evidence behind it, especially in regards to Alexander's sexuality.

Oh yes, anything that impugns Rome is to be discredited. Certainly Borgia had some positive aspects to his character and did many things for the good of Rome, yet many immoral men do similar. But if you think the record is a terrible misrepresentation hen go Catholic sources like the Catholic Encyclopedia, which is hardly suffers from a anti-Catholic bias.

The young Rodrigo had not yet definitely chosen his profession when the elevation of his uncle to the papacy (1455) opened up new prospects to his ambition. He was adopted into the immediate family of Callixtus and was known henceforward to the Italians as Rodrigo Borgia. Like so many other princely cadets, he was obtruded upon the Church, the question of a clerical vocation being left completely out of consideration. After conferring several rich benefices on him, his uncle sent him for a short year to study law at the University of Bologna...

the list of archbishoprics, bishoprics, abbacies, and other dignities held by him, as enumerated by the Bishop of Modena in a letter to the Duchess of Ferrara (Pastor, History of the Popes, V, 533, English tr.) reads like the famous catalogue of Leporello ...

In his twenty-ninth year he drew a scathing letter of reproof from Pope Pius II for misconduct in Sienna which had been so notorious as to shock the whole town and court (Raynaldus Ann. eccl. ad. an. 1460, n. 31). Even after his ordination to the priesthood, in 1468, he continued his evil ways.

Towards 1470 began his relations with the Roman lady, Vanozza Catanei, the mother of his four children: Juan, Caesar, Lucrezia and Jofre, born, respectively according to Gregorovius (Lucrezia Borgia 13)... in 1474, 1476, 1480, and 1482...

Alexander issued a wise decree concerning the censorship of books, and sent the first missionaries to the New World. Notwithstanding these and similar actions, which might seem to entitle him to no mean place in the annals of the papacy, Alexander continued as Pope the manner of life that had disgraced his cardinalate (Pastor, op. cit., III, 449 152)...

The French invasion was the turning point in the political career of Alexander VI. It had taught him that if he would be safe in Rome and be really master in the States of the Church, he must curb the insolent and disloyal barons who had betrayed him in his hour of danger. Unfortunately, this laudable purpose became more and more identified in his mind with schemes for the aggrandizement of his family. There was no place in his programme for a reform of abuses. Quite the contrary; in order to obtain money for his military operations he disposed of civil and spiritual privileges and offices in a scandalous manner. He resolved to begin with the Orsini, whose treason at the most critical moment had reduced him to desperate straits...

Unsuccessful in obtaining for his family the possessions of the Orsini, the Pope now demanded the consent of his cardinals to the erection of Benevento, Terracina, and Pontecorvo into a duchy for the Duke of Gandia. Cardinal Piccolomini was the only member who dared protest against this improper alienation of the property of the Church...

after three days and nights passed without food or sleep, he appeared in consistory and proclaimed his determination to set about that reform of the Church "in head and members" for which the world had so long been clamouring. A commission of cardinals and canonists began industriously to frame ordinances which foreshadowed the disciplinary decrees of Trent. But they were never promulgated. Time gradually assuaged the sorrow and extinguished the contrition of Alexander. From now on Caesar's iron will was supreme law...

Alexander cannot be held responsible for the second "barbarian" invasion of Italy, but he was quick to take advantage of it for the consolidation of his temporal power and the aggrandizement of his family...

Alexander, still hale and vigorous in his seventy-third year, and looking forward to many mere years of reign, proceeded to strengthen his position by repleting his treasury in ways that were more than dubious.

The Sacred College now contained so many of his adherents and countrymen that he had nothing to fear from that quarter. He enjoyed and laughed at the scurrilous lampoons that were in circulation in which he was accused of incredible crimes, and took no steps to shield his reputation.

The most severe arraignments of Alexander, because in a sense official, are those of his Catholic contemporaries, Pope Julius II (Gregorovius, VII, 494) and the Augustinian cardinal and reformer, Aegidius of Viterbo, in his manuscript "Historia XX Saeculorum", preserved at Rome in the Bibliotheca Angelica. The Oratorian Raynaldus (d. 1677), who continued the semi-official Annals of Baronius, gave to the world at Rome (ad an. 1460, no. 41) the above-mentioned paternal but severe reproof of the youthful Cardinal by Pius II, and stated elsewhere (ad an. 1495, no. 26) that it was in his time the opinion of historians that Alexander had obtained the papacy partly through money and partly through promises and the persuasion that ho would not interfere with the lives of his electors. Mansi, the scholarly Archbishop of Lucca editor and annotator of Raynaldus, says (XI, 4155) that it is easier to keep silence than to write write moderation about this Pope. The severe judgment of the late Cardinal Hergenröther, in his "Kirchengeschichte", or Manual of Church History (4th. ed., Freiburg, 1904, II, 982-983) is too well known to need more than mention...

So little have Catholic historians defended him that in the middle of the nineteenth century Cesare Cantù could write that Alexander VI was the only Pope who had never found an apologist. However, since that time some Catholic writers, both in books and periodicals, have attempted to defend him from the most grievous accusations of his contemporaries....

These and other works were occasioned, partly by a laudable desire to remove a stigma from the good repute of the Catholic Church, and partly by the gross exaggerations of Victor Hugo and others who permitted themselves all licence in dealing with a name so helpless and detested. It cannot be said, however, that these works have corresponded to their authors' zeal. Dr. Pastor ranks them all as failures.

Dr. Pastor considers that the publication of the documents in the supplement to the third volume of Thuasne's edition of the Diary of Burchard (Paris, 1883) renders "forever impossible" any attempts to save the reputation of Alexander VI. There is all the less reason, therefore, says Cardinal Hergenröther (op. cit., II, 583), for the false charges that have been added to his account, e.g. his attempt to poison Cardinal Adriano da Corneto and his incest relations with Lucrezia (Pastor, op. cit., III, 375, 450-451, 475). Other accusations, says the same writer, have been dealt with.... ...

On the other hand, while immoral writers have made only too much capital out of the salacious paragraphs scattered through Burchard and Infessura, there is no more reason now than in the days of Raynaldus and Mansi for concealing or perverting the facts of history. "I am a Catholic", says M. de l'Epinois (loc. cit.), "and a disciple of the God who hath a horror of lies. I seek the truth, all the truth, and nothing but the truth Although our weak eyes do not see at once the uses of it, or rather see damage and peril, we must proclaim it fearlessly." The same good principle is set forth by Leo XIII in his Letter of 8 September, 1889, to Cardinals De Luca, Pitra, and Hergenröther on the study of Church History: "The historian of the Church has the duty to dissimulate none of the trials that the Church has had to suffer from the faults of her children, and even at times from those of her own ministers." - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01289a.htm

But it's great that you read this post, because people like you are my target audience! > Then it testifies to the degree of delusion your posts indicate, as you keep shooting yourself in the foot, as everyone i responded to exposed the specious nature of your RC apologetics.

16 posted on 10/27/2014 5:26:27 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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