AND -- show us where and when this one known as Peter Waldo ever "returned to the Church".
He was ex-communicated. And according to historians, no one knows precisely where he breathed his last.
So go fetch. Back your own statements up, before I need to bother untangling ever more messes.
Though I will say, that all one needs to find is one Inquisitor among those you mentioned;
for there were a pair of papal bull written -- authorizing Inquisitors to ---in addition to jailing/imprisoning suspect heretics, to do most anything they saw fit.
On small phrase like that, often turned much violence committed against those the RCC perceived as challenges to their own claims of authority, characterizing them any way they could as "enemies of the Church".
That the persecution of the Waldenses persisted for centuries with no real correction, and even support (through bishops and Inquisitors) ties it all back right to office of papacy.
But I KNEW the wiggle-worm serpentine RC apologetic (such as characterized by that which is highlighted in brown text, above) in attempt to distance the wholesale murders from the Roman Catholic Church -- would come out, doing it's usual snake-footed, slithering tap-dancing. I've seen it a thousand times.
BUT-- you answer to what I've set before you in previous note, and include proof that this Waldo "returned to the church" instead of (eventually) being ex-communicated -- and then I may entertain some rebuttal you may have to offer as to under what authority these people were murdered -- and what their theology consisted of -- for that theology can be seen to change over time & place.
Meanwhile -- to any rebutal and additional claims you may wish to make -- bring proper documentation. I get sick and tired of doing all the work around here -- combating erroneous & twisted assertions. The half-truths, with a cunning twist to them -- which turns what truth there is of a thing into misleading statements which obscure or turn things sideways -- take much time to straighten out.
Like this sort of confused garbage;
pretends that the Waldensians even believed THAT.
Oh, they believed they needed to live a pure and sanctified life alright, but it is highly doubtful they believed they could do so "without His grace".
Even today --- there are many Roman Catholics, and others also -- who although they say they believe in Grace --- still believe they must also work to earn it.
An RCC counterpoint to this -- to be effectually granted this Grace you speak of-- need receive forgiveness for sins through the auspices of a Roman Catholic priest -- and no one else.
A wise, all-knowing God (which He is) would not have set up such a system -- as the Romanist one, as that was known (and functioned!) in centuries past.
God is good.
Not stupid, and cruel.
Like when it is demonstrated that the Catholic claim of universality goes all the way back to 110 AD in contradiction to the initial claim of 12th century AD and so then the issue becomes papal primacy, is that the kind of goal post moving you're talking about?
He was ex-communicated. And according to historians, no one knows precisely where he breathed his last.
You're right. Nobody knows. We can hope and pray though. I'll concede that one. Must've been something I picked up along my travels.
But I KNEW the wiggle-worm serpentine RC apologetic (such as characterized by that which is highlighted in brown text, above) in attempt to distance the wholesale murders from the Roman Catholic Church -- would come out, doing it's usual snake-footed, slithering tap-dancing. I've seen it a thousand times.
So sorry that the details of the matter screw up a good protestant screed.
Meanwhile -- to any rebutal and additional claims you may wish to make -- bring proper documentation. I get sick and tired of doing all the work around here -- combating erroneous & twisted assertions. The half-truths, with a cunning twist to them -- which turns what truth there is of a thing into misleading statements which obscure or turn things sideways -- take much time to straighten out.
It's a heavy burden being the smartest guy in the room. I sympathize.
Oh, they believed they needed to live a pure and sanctified life alright, but it is highly doubtful they believed they could do so "without His grace".
I don't think so:
In its semi-Pelagian component, an emphasis on the human capability to choose righteousness and reject evil deliberately, Waldensianism stressed that it was in the here and now, in faith and in works, that every Christian could and had to choose between the two. [1]
Even today --- there are many Roman Catholics, and others also -- who although they say they believe in Grace --- still believe they must also work to earn it. cooperate with it.
Which assumes that one isn't intentionally misconstruing what they are saying when they say work as a euphemism for cooperation with God's grace. So I ask, again: when you encounter Catholics whom you know are saying things contradictory to the teaching of the Church do you correct them? It would go something like this, "Actually the Catholic Church teaches..." We wouldn't want them to fall into anathema now would we?
If anyone says that man can be justified before God by his own works, whether done by his own natural powers or through the teaching of the law, without divine grace through Jesus Christ, let him be anathema [2].
A wise, all-knowing God (which He is) would not have set up such a system -- as the Romanist one, as that was known (and functioned!) in centuries past. God is good. Not stupid, and cruel.
Yes He is. And everything God made is good including the universe, everything in it and the human body. So He is not predisposed to engage in the gnostic predilections of protestants with their ignorance and bias toward the created world. In it we find His Church which is the epitome of His intellect and mercy.
[1] Kaelber, L. (1998). Schools of asceticism: Ideology and organization in medieval religious communities. University Park, PA: Pennsylvania State University Press.
[2] Paul III Council of Trent-6. (n.d.). Retrieved from http://www.ewtn.com/library/councils/trent6.htm