Replies

"Willy nilly" is not what we are dealing with, but why would you ever doubt that some Jews could modify a pagan practice in the light of Scripture and history?

I doubt Second Temple Jews were adopting Pagan practices, particularly after the Maccabean revolt. Your quote from Acts is a quote from Jeremiah. First Temple Jews did adopt Pagan practices frequently. Concerning Kabbalah, I know very little about it. Given my exposure to certain parts of Protestantism/Messianic [non]Judaism (and to a lesser extent certain parts of Catholicism), I am not going to base my view of it on the basis of a link on the internet.

Do you really want to follow Jewish tradition and some of the nonsense in the Babylonian Talmud, at least from some of what i read?

I strongly suggest you read Talmud commentaries prior to commenting on it. Perspicuity of Talmud is a very erroneous doctrine. However, if you are going to read it, start with Pirkei Avot (Wisdom of the Fathers). For example, Avot 1:10: "Smaayah and Avtalyon received from them. Shmaayah would say: Love work, Loath mastery over others, and avoid intimacy with the government." If only our dearly beloved president would follow that.

That is simply your problem not mine. That some Jews did what is not in Scripture after a surprisingly innovative period only testifies to spiritual declension, not orthodoxy. The problem that I mentioned as second was a claim of how do I know that purgatory dates back to the Apostles? Your quote establishes that it was in Jewish thought a century before the Apostles and not an innovation of the Catholic Church.

That is simply your problem not mine. That some Jews did what is not in Scripture after a surprisingly innovative period only testifies to spiritual declension, not orthodoxy.

Given Jesus' repeated interactions with the Pharisees and Pauls' statement that he had been a disciple of Gamaliel, I would expect to be able to find them giving an unqualified put down of all Pharisaic notions. The best anyone has been able to show to date is a put down of a specific tradition or two.

>> “Given Jesus’ repeated interactions with the Pharisees and Pauls’ statement that he had been a disciple of Gamaliel, I would expect to be able to find them giving an unqualified put down of all Pharisaic notions. The best anyone has been able to show to date is a put down of a specific tradition or two.” <<

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You really need to do more thoughtful reading of God's word!

Matthew 15 is a total rebuke of all the Pharisees said and did:

[1] Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying,
[2] Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.
[3] But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
[4] For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
[5] But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;
[6] And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
[7] Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
[8] This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
[9] But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
[10] And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand:
[11] Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.
[12] Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying?
[13] But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.
[14] Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

And Matthew 23 is again a total rebuke of the Pharisees and their false commandments:

[1] Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
[2] Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat:
[3] All therefore whatsoever ~~they~~ He* bids you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
[4] For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
[5] But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
[6] And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
[7] And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.
[8] But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
[9] And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
[10] Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.
[11] But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.
[12] And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.
[13] But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
[14] Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows’ houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
[15] Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
[16] Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!
[17] Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?
[18] And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty.
[19] Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?
[20] Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon.
[21] And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein.
[22] And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon.
[23] Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
[24] Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.
[25] Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
[26] Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
[27] Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
[28] Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.
[29] Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
[30] And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
[31] Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
[32] Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
[33] Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
[34] Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
[35] That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
[36] Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
[37] O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
[38] Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
[39] For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

How many woes does it take to convince you that he rejected them and all they said and did?

* The original Hebrew Matthew said "He," not "they."

I doubt Second Temple Jews were adopting Pagan practices, particularly after the Maccabean revolt

But Goldhammer said prayer for the dead was not practiced around that time, but 100 years later and only by some Jews. A lot can happen in two generations, and did.

Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth. (Titus 1:14)

And it remains that praying to the departed in Heaven is utterly absent in Scripture, except by pagans, while prayer to God abounds,

and is specifically instructed to be addressed by the Lord in teaching the how to pray,

and with only God being the only one shown having the ability to hear and respond to infinite amounts of prayer,

and with Christ being manifest as the only and all sufficient Heavenly intercessor,

and with believers having direct access by Him into the holy of holies to worship commune and petition God.

Your quote establishes that it was in Jewish thought a century before the Apostles and not an innovation of the Catholic Church.

The point is that it was an innovation, utterly absent in Scripture despite over 150 prayers, and contrary to the power and position saints are shown to have, in contrast to God/Christ.

Given Jesus' repeated interactions with the Pharisees and Paul's' statement that he had been a disciple of Gamaliel, I would expect to be able to find them giving an unqualified put down of all Pharisaic notions.

That is another case in which the conclusion is unwarranted. At is takes is one major rejection of Truth and they are invalidated, while that the Pharisees supported prayer for the dead, let alone to the departed, is never shown or inferred.

The best anyone has been able to show to date is a put down of a specific tradition or two.

Really? You have the notion that "out of Galilee ariseth no prophet," plus that the common people could not be right versus them, and that itinerant preachers could not be valid if they rebuked the historical magisterium, both of which are quite like Rome when claiming assured veracity.

Then answered them the Pharisees, Are ye also deceived? Have any of the rulers or of the Pharisees believed on him? But this people who knoweth not the law are cursed. (John 7:47-49)

Doth our law judge any man, before it hear him, and know what he doeth? They answered and said unto him, Art thou also of Galilee? Search, and look: for out of Galilee ariseth no prophet. (John 7:51-52)