Posted on 09/30/2014 11:41:47 AM PDT by NYer
Thanks for saying that.
I try to remember that the most learned of Jews did not see Christ in the OT. Perhaps we only ‘kind of’ get it as well?
This is the only area that I do not have strong feelings on.
Well, not exactly. I really don’t think dispensationalism is an accurate escatalogical view.
Historic premil, amil and postmil are all much more Scripturally satisfying.
What worries me here is that I don’t want to hitch my wagon to one particular theory and be totally wrong, much like those who were looking for a Messiah on in NT and thought he would be a liberator of Israel, not the liberator of our souls.
Or as one church elder I know says: Confession is good for your soul and bad for your reputation.
This is about an 18-19th centuries teaching about a future rapture. What is said in the Bible is at the end of the age.
At least we know that according to the “gospel of Ezekiel Emanuel” the end of the age is 75.
You’re welcome. : )
No, but “tribulation” and “wrath” are not identical terms or concepts.
Wrath is God’s righteous punishment, whereas a tribulation is a hardship, a trouble, a time of difficulty and sorrow. God never promised to save us from those things during our time on earth. In fact, quite the opposite, he promised that believers would have to go through such things:
“8 We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair;
9 Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed;” 2 Cor:8-9
“20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.” Matt 13:20-21
“35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.” Rom 8:35-36
“10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ’s sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.” 2 Cor 12:10
And this quote is very revealing:
“4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.” 2 Thes 4:10
These verses tell us that:
* Tribulations are a token of the righteous judgement of God, and a sign that a believer or church is suffering for doing God’s work, and may be worthy to enter the Kingdom
* It is a righteous thing for God to repay those who trouble the church with tribulations Himself
* Those who are troubled will “rest” when the 2nd coming occurs, and Jesus comes to take vengeance, which matches up nicely with the descriptions of the second coming in Revelation, and with the verses from 1 Thes 4 that some use to try to support a pre-tribulaton rapture.
Revelation 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
They already acknowledge at the sixth seal that the wrath has come. By that time the kings and princes even had come to realize it wasn't just the weather causing bad things but it was God. You can surely know that they didn't admit at the first seal that it was God. These were unbelievers in the one try God after all.
“Well, if God has it in mind to touch his heart, He’ll do it, regardless. I hope it happens.”
True, God can do whatever please Him, whether we like it or not :)
“They already acknowledge at the sixth seal that the wrath has come.”
Not quite. They say “the great day of his wrath is come”. Firstly, the great day of wrath is a singular event, prophesied of in many places in the Bible, so we have no excuse to mistake it for some long, drawn out, years-long event. Secondly, “is come” doesn’t mean the same thing as “has come”. “Is come” can mean the same as “is upon us”, or “is imminent”, referring to a future event that must take place shortly. The future tense of this phrase is confirmed by the next phrase, also in the future tense: “who shall be able to stand?”
That’s the truth!
It has nothing to do with think Scripture isn't authoritative, but everything to do with thinking Scripture doesn't teach that stuff.
Amen!
So there are 2 1/2 Comings?
In their system, the Rapture one doesn't count as a "coming". I know, I know ....
I wish that were true. My ex was a born again Catholic but went to a Christian junior college and got way-laid by existentialism. Majored in philosophy at Wheaton but we had zero spiritual life. Could have been sooo different. He called me a Christian Taliban and lives in New England.
An obsession with Kierkegaard, perhaps? I've met a man very like that (but the New England part does not match).
Now, I wouldn’t be so much of a stickler on this if the pretrib rapture folks would just say “we think the rapture might happen before the tribulation, because we make the following deductions...”. Yet, you don’t often hear them say things like that. Most of the time, their statements are much more final and certain, as if their interpretation is based only on Scripture, and not on their own fallible interpretations of it.
It's more than that.
For many I've seen, dispensational distinctives are what scripture says, without any interpretive step acknowledged.
I know, that’s what I was joking about.
They can’t get around the part about Jesus descending from heaven, but they won’t admit that he goes any further than that. So it’s a “half coming”... he comes halfway back to Earth, then either hangs around in the sky or goes back to Heaven I guess.
True, I’ve seen a few statements like that on this very thread.
No it's a period of time.
Matthew 24:29 And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken;
That's multiple days. In Daniel's prophecy we see that the time left of the 490 years is seven years (one week of years). All of the events of Revelation occur during that seven year period.
>>Secondly, “is come” doesn’t mean the same thing as “has come”.<<
The Greek has past or present tense "has come". It is not a future anticipated event.
>>The future tense of this phrase is confirmed by the next phrase, also in the future tense: “who shall be able to stand?”<
That statement doesn't stand the scrutiny of the rest of scripture. Here is the literal word for word from the Greek:
"because come did the great day of His anger, and who is able to stand?
It says " come did" and "is able". Not will come or will be able.
later
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