The Hail Mary of a Protestant

http://www.abouttherosary.com ^ | September 3, 2014 | Robbe Lyn Sebesta

[daniel1212]

So your Catholic teachers taught you that they were smarter and holier than you.. .

It would be more credible if a source or indication was provided for "guidelines for flaming," AKA "Dilbert rules for internet debating" rather than as if it were original: http://www.usmessageboard.com/threads/welcome-to-the-bull-ring-discussions-and-call-outs-forum.275698/page-4#post-6777394

But what else is new.

[LurkingSince'98]

the Lord’s Prayer - that is the only prayer you say?

that is a fairly limited prayer list even for a protestant.

For a Catholic there are at least seven prayer types that I am aware:

Adoration,
Contrition,
Thanksgiving,
Supplication,
Meditation,
Contemplation,
Lectio Divinia.

For the Greater Glory of God

[JPX2011]

You can’t be serious. The Muslims don’t claim an unknown god anywhere near what that passage says. That was a pathetic attempt.

I am serious. But at least we've moved the conversation in the proper direction. The issue to be addressed is what the Muslim claims. Hence the necessity of CCC 841. So substitute the word profess for claims.

[daniel1212]

But the evidence shows that are usually a substitute for a valid argument, despite your professed learning.

[CynicalBear]

Well, I suppose if Catholics and Muslims serve the same god and you keep insisting you do we can understand the pope kissing the Quran. The moon god of the Muslims with it’s crescent moon symbol does fit with the crescent moon of the monstranse also. The similarities do become obvious don’t they.

[Springfield Reformer]

It is a fragment of a larger statement that the haters use to try and divide the Body of Christ. Will you let them succeed?

They are correct. I have, like you, been exposed to some of the best thinking and writing of Rome, including the Summa, various important encyclicals, etc. I accept what is good. I reject what cannot be reconciled with Scripture. There is nothing Abrahamic about kissing the Black Stone (aka meteor) in Mecca.

Your contested language:

841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”

I am curious why you bolded the phrase "these profess to hold the faith of Abraham." The claim to be derived from the Abrahamic faith is a fraud. Mormons espouse a Gnostic form of polytheism, but also claim to share in the Abrahamic faith. Such claims are easily exposed by those not hell bent on ecumenism at any price. Should I or any Christian let those false claims succeed?

But as if that were not enough, the writer also makes another egregiously false statement, which you can verify against your own Bible. Jesus draws a line in the sand:

Joh 5:22-23  For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:  (23)  That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

Those who reject Jesus reject God. Muslims give Him lip service as a prophet while at the same time rejecting everything He taught about Himself. In making this judgment against Jesus' teachings, they have in fact rejected Jesus Himself, and therefore reject the Father. This is why they follow in the murderous ways of their true father, Satan.

Am I now to believe the Roman church teaches that followers of an essentially Satanic religion, complete with ongoing human sacrifice, are in "first place" in acknowledging the Creator, or that they have any prospect of salvation while wholy enslaved to Satan??? Hogwash! The souls of Muslims are just as precious to the true God as any of us, and it does them a great injustice to lie to them and tell them they are in any way reverent of the true God, when their religion is in fact based on a profound Satanic lie. It is trading "ecumenical progress" for eternally lost souls. It is outrageous, and no credit to the writers you are here trying to protect in their grevious error.

No, your contrary correspondents have read the text correctly. However, their correctness should not lead to the dividing of Christ's body, but rather unifying it in redoubling our effort to evangelize lost Muslims.

Peace,

SR

[JPX2011]

Well, I suppose if Catholics and Muslims serve the same god and you keep insisting you do we can understand the pope kissing the Quran. The moon god of the Muslims with it’s crescent moon symbol does fit with the crescent moon of the monstranse also. The similarities do become obvious don’t they.

Now that's what I call pathetic. I thought I said to put down the Hislop.

[daniel1212]

Start with Mohammedans worshiping the same God. That is a good jump off point. 841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.” Of course he had to avoid the context of that cut-n-paste to make it work. The REST of the story: The Church and non-Christians 839 “Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways.” How is anything in that not Christian?

That desperate defense is contrary to the objectivity you conveyed in your testimony, as the fact remains that the CCC plainly states that "together with us they adore the one, merciful God," and which other RCs honestly see as a real problem.

Nor can there be any reading "profess" into the latter part, which is the usual RC recourse. Or making the Muslims into those who simply worship some unknown, unnamed undefined god in contrast to a named defined deity, (Acts 17:22) but it cannot be true of Islam as a whole, which is what V2 and the CCC affirms as worshiping God. And trying to spin "adore" into something less than worship is more desperate. .

The only explanation that would only be credible would be admitting the liberal faction of V2 worked that in there, and like many conservative RCs contend. But as there is more that needs to be rejected in order to hold to saving Truth, just this rejection would only leave them as lost as before.

[Gamecock]

Bowing to Muzzies, a Roman Catholic tradition.

[Gamecock]

To 609.

[Gamecock]

7. 709

[daniel1212]

You can’t be serious. The Muslims don’t claim an unknown god anywhere near what that passage says. That was a pathetic attempt.

They are serious. About defending their elitist proud church at cost to their own credibility.

[metmom]

If this is truly Catholic belief, I want no part of it.

It's in their catechism.

To be good Cathlics, they HAVE to adhere to it.

[Gamecock]

Of course. That is the beauty of the Church. :)

Ahhh, the "beauty of the church"

[metmom]

OK. Instead of just telling him he’s wrong and expecting us to accept that with no supporting evidence on your part, how about you tell him where and why you think he’s wrong and back up your position with Scripture?

And not just little snippets taken out of context either.

Show us with multiple passages, taken in context.

[RegulatorCountry]

Is that Raggedy Andy behind the priest? Sort of overshadowed by the female clown, true, but I think it actually is. Which liturgy involves a female clown and Raggedy Andy? Halloween?

[metmom]

Love, hate, love, hate, love, hate,

Sounds more like schizophrenia to me.....

[RegulatorCountry]

I’d agree if it wasn’t so synchronous. There must be a trigger or signal of some sort.

[metmom]

It’s irrelevant what muslims claim or profess.

The problem is that the Roman Catholic church says that they and the muslims worship the same God together with the Catholic church.

It’s right there in the CCC.

[daniel1212]

am curious why you bolded the phrase "these profess to hold the faith of Abraham."

Because that is used to try to read "profess into "together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day,” but which simply is no there. Rather it plainly affirms Muslims adore the one merciful God together with RCs.

Others see this but as seen in another thread, they try to make it mean "They shoot their arrow in the right direction (toward the “God of Abraham”), but they do not understand the target and their bow is too weak because their bow lacks the power of grace." Or they say the mag. cannot be authoritative about what Muslims teach/believe" in any definitive sense.

Desperate defend-Rome-at-any-cost (DRAAC) .