[Migraine]

So. All those martyrs died, not just for a fraud, but for a fake fraud, to preserve a fake, fraudulent fiction? In a million years, that’s not gonna happen.
People tend to say, at the point of death, “OK, ya got me. What tipped ya off?”

[Bulwyf]

That’s worth repeating. I often say that when someone says it wasn’t real. I don’t think men would of been lining up to die for a known fraud.

[bigdaddy45]

Thanks. I was going to say the exact same thing. So the 12 disciples died grisly deaths for a fraud? I don’t think so.

[Gumdrop]

“So. All those martyrs died, not just for a fraud, but for a fake fraud, to preserve a fake, fraudulent fiction?”

---

Your comment has been stated before. About 25 years ago I saw a program on EWTN with Fr. Ken Roberts. He alluded to the fact that the apostles all (except for John) gave up their livelihood and homes to spread the good news of Jesus Christ the Savior. They each accepted death rather than to rescind their faith or deny Christ.

So, you are on solid theological ground here. It is not logical that the gospel story was made up by a bunch of lunatics or crazy people.

[alexander_busek]

So. All those martyrs died, not just for a fraud, but for a fake fraud, to preserve a fake, fraudulent fiction? In a million years, that’s not gonna happen. People tend to say, at the point of death, “OK, ya got me. What tipped ya off?”

I assume that you are referring to that special category of eyewitness martyrs, since there would be nothing remarkable about non-eyewitness martyrs - who gullibly believe in a fantastic myth without extremely reliable and convincing evidence (see my tagline!) - dying for their supposed "belief."

Now, how many eyewitness martyrs of the miracles of the Gospels were there in actuality? What where their names, and when was their eyewitness testimony transcribed and thus documented?

Consider those "Heaven's Gate" cultists who died (committed suicide) for their beliefs. Couldn't they likewise be regarded as martyrs? Don't their voluntary deaths "prove" that their beliefs could be true. And it the "Heaven's Gate" suicides had occurred in an earlier age, before t.v. and the Internet, you can be sure that the stories surrounding them would be far more colorful (the bodies would have been mysteriously "incorruptible," or the comet would have changed course, etc.).

In reality, the measuring stick you propose using to determine the validity of a belief-system is severely flawed.

Regards,

[boatbums]

So. All those martyrs died, not just for a fraud, but for a fake fraud, to preserve a fake, fraudulent fiction? In a million years, that’s not gonna happen. People tend to say, at the point of death, “OK, ya got me. What tipped ya off?”

Excellent point! Though some people will die for a lie (i.e., Islamist homicide bombers), NO ONE will die for what he knows is a lie.