Posted on 07/29/2014 4:02:28 PM PDT by Faith Presses On
Jessa Duggar is currently courting Ben Seewald, a very strong Christian with very strong views on things. His views on the Catholic faith, however, recently caused a social media scandal and Seewald deleted the comments he had posted to his Facebook page.
"Where Catholics depart from Scripture, I will in no way support, but will call them out because I love them and desire that they be turned from their deadly errors," Seewald wrote. He also noted that he disagreed with the claim that Jesus' mother Mary was a "sinless being. I have nothing against individuals who are Catholic," he continued. "I know a lot of Catholics who are great people. What I DO have a problem with is the teaching that man can merit God's favor through his own works or the works of other fallen men."
Seewald was still not through expressing his disappointment with the Catholic tradition.
"I DO have a problem with the teaching that man can come to God through Mary or any other person besides Jesus … I DO have a problem with the deification of Mary as a sinless being. Mary herself admitted her need for a Savior. If she had no sin, she would need no Savior," he concluded.
(Excerpt) Read more at christianpost.com ...
I wanted to read the article you provided, even though it was by catholic apologists and not greek grammarians, and came across the above line.
If the writers don't know who wrote Ephesians, then I question the rest of their article.
I know. Think, people, think! LOL
What a calm and peaceful response. Not like Ann Archy’s hysteria and name calling at all!
Oh wow, you mean that Mary can be our savior then?!!
Why? Only Catholics can come on FR and speak what they believe?
the work of purification of our souls is our being sanctified here on earth.
Because that’s not what the Bible says.
The perfect indicates a completed action whose effects are felt in the speaker's present. The action normally occurred in the past. Keep in mind the time of the verb is from the standpoint of the speaker/writer. (Mounce, Basics of Biblical Greek, pp.24-25)
It is not a verbal title. It is a greeting as Mary noted in verse 29 "as she kept pondering what kind of salutation this might be."
Although these four grammatical characteristics do not prove the Immaculate Conception,
Yet the author goes right ahead and makes the point that it does prove it. This is eisogesis...reading something into the text that isn't there. This is a very dangerous way to interpret the Word and often leads the reader astray into false doctrine(s).
KEKARITOMENE is the best Greek word that could have been chosen to coincide with it. Any other Greek word would have been inadequate or even faulty. That is all we can really say, grammatically speaking."
Let's recall that Luke was a physician. If he had wanted to say Mary was sinless he would have made that clear. What is clear is that something very special is about to happen to Mary as Gabriel goes on to explain in the rest of the chapter.
"It is permissible, on Greek grammatical and linguistic grounds, to paraphrase kecharitomene as completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace." (Blass and DeBrunner, Greek Grammar of the New Testament)."
It is permissible to do a lot of things, but they aren't always the right thing to do. The best one could derive from this is that Mary was highly favored. She is blessed as noted in the text and as the text records "from this time on all generations will count be blessed." She was favored by God to give birth to Christ. She deserves nothing less and nothing more beyond what Luke records.
The ongoing scholarly discussion about how to best translate this word, is due to the fact that the word is unique in the world, used only in the Gospel of Luke. It has the characteristics of being a title with a feminine ending, and also of being the past perfect passive verb form. The root verb is "charitoo," to fill with grace. The "past, perfect, passive" form means that it was done ab initio, from the beginning, it was done fully, and it was done TO her (it was not something she did herself.)
This is an incorrect understanding of the perfect passive form. I cannot find anything in my grammers that indicates it means it was done from the "beginning"....which I presume the authors mean from the beginning of time. Other uses of perfect tense in the NT do not support this understanding.
I do agree she did not do it herself. That's an easy one. Only God can grant His favor to someone.
This is not, as I said, a mathematical proof. It's something that lends a certain weight as evidence. It prompts the legitimate question, "Why would Luke use a completely unheard-of word like "Kecharitomene" (instead of "pleres charitos")?
How would you answer that question?
This is conjecture and again would be practicing eisogesis.
There isn't anything perplexing about the word Luke has used if one keeps Mary's story in proper context with the rest of the Bible and the clear teaching on sin as noted in Romans 3:23.
We --- you and I ---DO share the belief that the Gospel is Divinely-inspired.
Yes we do.
See my point? (I'm asking whether you "see" my point. I'm not asking if you agree with it!)
I do not "see" your point....the grammer doesn't support it nor does a reading of the text in conjunction with the rest of the Bible.
Good discussion. Nice and civil and hopefully educational.
I don’t like how I said that there is more than one mediator between God and man. Most Catholic theologians would say there is one mediator between God and man - Jesus. But they would also say that there are many intercessors between God and man - those on Earth and Saints in Heaven. The word intercessor more appropriately depicts the lowly/subordinate state of the Saints and Mary relative to Jesus and God. A parser of words might say that an intercession is a petitionary mediation, but I will not say that at this time.
So there are many intercessors between God and man (i.e. they intercede with God on our behalf):
1 Timothy 2:1 First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men,
There is simply no biblical basis for the sinlessness of Mary. It's wishful conjecture at best.
There's no need to weave goddess mythology into the fabric of the Christian faith...
Only God is sinless
Catholics think Mary is sinless
ergo....
Mary was saved by faith and her salvation came through her earth born son Jesus Christ whom she carried. Mary was born a sinner {under the curse} just like the rest of us were since Adam and Eve's children.
Mary was a chosen one of GOD like Noah, Abram, Jacob {Israel}, Moses, David, Solomon, John The Baptist, Matthew, Luke, Simon, Paul, Pastor Smith and Father Jones, was called upon and did the Will of GOD asked of them. Mary was blessed because of her obedience and faith {which GOD obviously knew her heart} GOD revealed to her the Savior the same way he revealed him to Simon Peter.
Simon Peter too was blessed does that mean he too was sinless? No. It just means he was blessed by a revelation the Lord gave to him revelation of Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior being the New Covenant. He was blessed because GOD revealed His Son his plan of salvation to him not by the acts of men but by His Spirit telling him This is The Christ The Messiah promised. Peter was blessed in the same way we all now are.
GOD finding favor in someone does not mean they are sinless. Only Christ was sinless and only because in Spirit being {his very being} He is the Son Of God and all things were given to Him to overcome the curse upon man in His earthly task.
Believe what you want
Oh no, Catholics certainly DO deify Mary and pray to her. Don’t even pretend they don’t.”
Are you knowingly lying about what Catholics do? I am a Catholic and would never think to deify Mary. You do know the difference between prayer and worship don’t you? I certainly hope so if you have any education at all.
You do know that lying is a sin, don’t you? You do know that you will answer to God at your judgment, don’t you?
He might be just a bit ticked at you lying about the church that He founded.
NO!
Thank you. I thinmk we both appreciate that.
You’re saying God couldn’t make Mary sinless at the beginning of her life? He did it for Adam and Eve at the beginning of their lives...
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