Posted on 07/28/2014 3:10:13 PM PDT by The Grammarian
You realize that I'm not Catholic, right? (That's a pretty uncharitable remark, regardless.)
And you know what? People can be Christ followers in isolation. Indeed, many people are forced into it due to circumstances beyond their control.
Exceptions (that one can be a Christ-follower in isolation because of external forces) do not prove the rule ("'Holy solitaries' is a phrase no more consistent with the gospel than holy adulterers. The gospel of Christ knows no religion, but social; no holiness but social holiness," as John Wesley puts it).
A person does NOT need a church, a denomination, an organization, to follow Christ.
The Early Church Fathers disagree with you (see again Cyprian of Carthage, among others). For that matter, the Bible disagrees with you (Hebrews 10:25). Organizations naturally arise out of community, and the Church (=ekklesia, assembly of the called) is naturally a community of believers. That organization is there to regulate the shared life of the Christian community to the end that God is glorified.
A follower of Christ just needs the leading of the Holy Spirit who is the indwelling presence in the believer.
And how do you know the Holy Spirit is leading you?
A Christian is one who's one inwardly, not one outwardly based on being a card carrying member of XYZ church.
This is another false dichotomy. "Card carrying membership" may not be required, but deliberately isolating yourself from other Christians can and should call into question whether you are really a Christian inwardly.
If you are unwilling to live with your brothers and sisters in community in the context of a local church and its attendant connections to other church congregations (be that a denomination or a 'non-denominational' church's connections to other churches in the community), then you should reevaluate to what it is that Christ is calling you.
The vast majority of Protestant denominations teach very similar doctrine on the 'essentials' of the faith. If you ask me which I think has the "true form of it," that is to say, the true form of the Mass and of Christian doctrine, I would point you toward my own church (surprised?) and also point you toward those denominations which, regardless of specific liturgical practices, hold similar core doctrines.
“We are not under obligation to keep the Ten Commandments to be in right standing with God any more. That’s the old covenant.”
I am sincerely grateful that you wrote the above. I do not understand such. I was in a group discussion just week or so ago and that issue was brought up and still has me perplexed. One individual stated we are free to do anything and used 1 Corinthians 8 as the basis of such. The context is regarding food sacrificed to idols and in verse 9 we are warned to not be a stumbling block to those who are weak. So if we are no longer obligated to keep the 10 commandments, can an individual be an adulterous murderer so long as such is done in secrecy so as not to wound a weaker individuals conscience? I had thought Christ came to fulfill the law rather than abolish it.
Again, I ask in all sincerity, and apologize for further going off topic, but this concept baffles me, and perhaps you can shed some light on this for me. Thanks.
That's a helluva statement. But it makes my reply simple: I reject anyone's insistence on coming between me and God as satanic - by definition.
Glad we understand each other.
It doesn't say you have to go to church every Sunday or you're sinning. It doesn't even say to attend church. It just says assembling together and doesn't specify how often and where.
And how do you know the Holy Spirit is leading you?
What's that got to do with church attendance?
People who go to churches are not necessarily more likely to know they're being led by the Holy Spirit and people who don't go to churches are not necessarily less likely to know the same.
If you can't tell if you're being led by the Holy Spirit and how to tell, them going to church isn't going to help any.
"Card carrying membership" may not be required, but deliberately isolating yourself from other Christians can and should call into question whether you are really a Christian inwardly.
Why?
And who said that those who are not going to church are "deliberately isolating" themselves from other Christians?
You do realize, don't you, that there are other venues for getting together with other believers?
What makes going to church so special that people can't afford to miss it? How does it prove you're a Christian?
So the Mafia hit man who goes to mass every Sunday has less reason to doubt he's a Christians simply because he goes to mass?
Is Christianity really all about going to church?
We are justified by faith in Christ, not by keeping the law. The Law was put in charge to lead us to Christ (Galatians 3:24) that we might be justified by faith. It does not mean that one can sin with impunity. Anyone with that attitude is not saved. You can’t have the Holy Spirit within you and live like that.
Keeping the Law never saved anyone in the first place and there’s a WHOLE lot more than just the Teen Commandments. We CAN’T keep the Law because Jesus revealed that it’s more than just doing the externals, it’s a matter of the heart. So someone can keep all the laws and appear perfect and still sin in their hearts and not be saved.
What were the two commands that Jesus said were the greatest?
If we do those, we fulfill the law inwardly, and when we sin, we confess and are forgiven.
Christ came to fulfill the Law so that He could be the perfect sacrifice for our sins and that he could impute, or credit to our account, HIS righteousness, a righteousness that comes through faith.
When someone who is truly saved sins, God will discipline and they will be miserable from the sinning.
You do know that the more you try to not sin, the more you do, don’t you? I don’t see the point of trying to beat the flesh into submission because it can’t be done in human strength. The more we try, the more we fail.
If we focus on being Christlike, and like Him, going about doing good, we won’t have the time or inclination to sin, not for trying, but as the natural outworking of our faith.
I don’t worry about trying to keep the Ten Commandments because the Christian life is about more than the negatives.
Don’t forget, King David WAS an adulterous murderer, and yet God still called him a *man after my own heart*.
Also, It's not that keeping the Ten Commandments is a bad thing, but that's not how we are in right standing with God. We are in right standing with God because of being in Christ. There's a difference.
The Pharisees had the Law nailed down and Jesus called them hypocrites and white-washed tombs.
That was very succinct. And I agree.
Thank you.
Good grief.
*** bangs head on desk***
Proof reading is my friend.
Proof reading is my friend.
Proof reading is my friend.
Proof reading is my friend.
brother, believe me I do not worship Mary. I am not a member of the Roman Catholic Church.
It's funny that people can't seem to imagine NOT being bound by the law...If you're not bound by the law, you going to go rob and murder people because there's no consequence???
God doesn't leave us high and dry to figure it out for ourselves...
Paul answers that question in Romans 7...In his spirit he desires to do good...It's a constant battle with his sinful flesh (the old man)...
He can't seem to do what he wants to do and finds himself doing things he doesn't want to do...
for words, thoughts and deeds
EXCOMMUNICATED...
metmom, you know exactly what that means
Ad Majoram Dei Gloriam
“believe me I do not worship Mary. I am not a member of the Roman Catholic Church”
Then you belong to that group of folks who are not a part of the Catholic Church for any Catholic who ‘worships’ Mary is EXCOMMUNICATED latie sentia ie automatically and are thus no longer Catholic.
AMDG
For the Greater Glory of God
That's an interesting point as well. There is the thought, and out of SOME people (primarily many FRoman Catholics not meaning you, Cde.), the accusation, that if someone believes there is no consequence, they CAN sin at will and WILL sin with impunity.
It reveals what is in their hearts that they think others are going to do this. Some people don't have the inner control to do what they ought and need the outer restrictions to keep them in line.
It evidences not having a heart change, the new birth.
There is nothing in Scripture that says there will be no consequence to sinning. God disciplines those He loves, those who are His sons and daughters.
No good father would allow a child to continue in sin. The *if there's no law you can sin all you want* crowd just does not understand that.
When I quit worrying about obsessively keeping the law, I quit having most of the trouble I have living a life holy towards God. It seemed that the more I tried, the worse I failed. Sin, being what it was, became alive, and gave me all kinds of grief.
Christ has set us free to live FOR Him in a positive focus, not to live a life fighting sin, with a negative focus.
If all we do is focus on resisting sin, we are doing it in our own strength and taking our eyes off Christ.
If we keep Christ before us, we won't even be inclined to sin or the temptation will not be so overwhelming.
I know what God's commandments are, and I know that I can't keep them. But as I live my life in Christ and His power, I do, without trying, and when I fall, which will happen, He's there with forgiveness and grace.
After reading through this later this morning, when I'm more awake, I see that I didn't respond to what you really asked. Sorry.
To answer that question, my conclusion is that anyone who thinks they can do that for that reason, is not a Christian.
The passage about wounding a weaker brother's conscience is not about SIN, moral wrongdoing. It's about things that are preferences, things that are what Paul calls *disputable matters*.
Sin is NOT a disputable matter.
I think a present day example would be drinking wine of beer. Some Christians are fine with it. Others are not.
If you know someone has a problem with Christians drinking, then doing it in their presence is not acting in love and thinking of the weaker brother, whose conscience is wounded by seeing you drink. Or maybe they are tempted beyond what they can control and will drink themselves and that could be a problem if they have a past where alcoholism is a factor in their past.
I hope that answers it better. I'm not a morning person and should know better than to try to post that early.
then i guess those excommunication lines are gonna be pretty busy.
Thank you.
How can I leave the people I love?
Hey, they’re worshiping a the house of their Lord.
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