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To: ealgeone
Hate to correct the pope, but outside of faith in Christ, and only Christ, there is no salvation nor remission of sin.

Furthermore, I am not subject to the pope. I am subject to Christ and Christ only.

Assume for a moment that a king came to a far off province of his. During his visit, he established his rule and set up ministers to oversee the province for him while he returned to his kingdom. Would you be obeying him by saying you are only subject to the king and not to the ministers he set up over you?

In the context of the Apostles, remember that they were given authority in Heaven and on Earth (binding and loosing; see Matt 16:19 & Isaiah 22:22). In other words, it isn't just "like" authority where they can set up little rules that have no Heavenly significance. They have real authority in all of creation throughout the eternal Catholic (universal) Church.

Being subject to Christ means obeying Christ and those in whom He vested His authority. You can't have one without the other. If there is a Church (and He promised to build His Church [Matt 16:18]), then it must have authority in order to preach, teach and hold the faithful to the Way. If it does not have such authority then there is no Church but rather a conglomeration of confederates who can only study what has been but possess no authority for teaching what the Spirit inspires. In that view, we have been orphaned and Christ has not fulfilled His promise to us. For though some may be inspired, there can be no teaching and building of doctrine without authority.

124 posted on 07/26/2014 11:41:49 AM PDT by pgyanke (Republicans get in trouble when not living up to their principles. Democrats... when they do.)
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To: pgyanke
Assume for a moment that a king came to a far off province of his. During his visit, he established his rule and set up ministers to oversee the province for him while he returned to his kingdom. Would you be obeying him by saying you are only subject to the king and not to the ministers he set up over you?

Sorry, but the King did not set anyone in your religion to be overseers of his flock...

127 posted on 07/26/2014 12:29:01 PM PDT by Iscool
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To: pgyanke
>Hate to correct the pope, but outside of faith in Christ, and only Christ, there is no salvation nor remission of sin. Furthermore, I am not subject to the pope. I am subject to Christ and Christ only.<

Assume for a moment that a king came to a far off province of his. During his visit, he established his rule and set up ministers to oversee the province for him while he returned to his kingdom. Would you be obeying him by saying you are only subject to the king and not to the ministers he set up over you?

In the context of the Apostles, remember that they were given authority in Heaven and on Earth (binding and loosing; see Matt 16:19 & Isaiah 22:22). In other words, it isn't just "like" authority where they can set up little rules that have no Heavenly significance. They have real authority in all of creation throughout the eternal Catholic (universal) Church.

There are several problem with your premise.

First is the presumed superiority of Peter over all of the other apostles which is not supported by the Bible.

Second is that there is no apostolic succession. We do not have any guidance in the NT about the apostles "passing on" their authority.

In other words, it isn't just "like" authority where they can set up little rules that have no Heavenly significance.

I wish this were true, but very sadly, the RCC has done just that. See indulgences, mortal v venial sins, loss of salvation, forgiveness only through a priest, prayer/worship of Mary etc.

Being subject to Christ means obeying Christ and those in whom He vested His authority. You can't have one without the other. If there is a Church (and He promised to build His Church [Matt 16:18]), then it must have authority in order to preach, teach and hold the faithful to the Way.

The authority is found in the Word itself as noted in many passages in the NT. That's the reason Paul, Peter, James and the rest of the boys left us the written Word. There is no new revelation. The NT contains all we need to know about obtaining salvation and how to conduct our walk with Christ.

You're attempting to tell me that if I, or another Christian, am in a conversation with someone regarding eternity and that person asks how one is saved and I show them in the Bible the passages regarding believing in Christ for salvation that I don't have the authority to do that??

Let's even suppose this person was in a car wreck and they're dying. Are you saying I wouldn't have the authority to witness to them as an adopted member of God's family?? Nonsense.

If it does not have such authority then there is no Church but rather a conglomeration of confederates who can only study what has been but possess no authority for teaching what the Spirit inspires.

If/when the RCC gets it right I would listen to them. However, the RCC is scripturally off on a lot of topics as previously noted.

In that view, we have been orphaned and Christ has not fulfilled His promise to us.

Nothing could be further from the truth. Jesus has said He would not leave us as orphans. He will come back for us. He has given us the Holy Spirit as a helper. The Holy Spirit is also a pledge of our inheritance. If the Holy Spirit is in us as Christians, then we have the authority and guidance of the Holy Spirit in our walk with Christ.

We have been adopted as children into God's family.

For though some may be inspired, there can be no teaching and building of doctrine without authority.

A reading of the NT will clear this up.

The Christian church is built upon Jesus. Ephesians 2:19-22 does a really nice job of explaining this.

The authority we have when we teach comes from Him. Recall that some are given the gift of teaching, prophecy, etc. But as noted in 1 Cor 12:4-7, now there are varieties of gifts but the same Spirit, and there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord, and there are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons. But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.

Sure sounds like authority to me.

140 posted on 07/26/2014 2:47:11 PM PDT by ealgeone (obama, borderof)
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To: pgyanke; ealgeone
Being subject to Christ means obeying Christ and those in whom He vested His authority. You can't have one without the other. If there is a Church (and He promised to build His Church [Matt 16:18]), then it must have authority in order to preach, teach and hold the faithful to the Way.

Indeed, but it was not a church that presumed to infallibly declare she is and will be perpetually infallible whenever she speaks in accordance with her infallibly defined (scope and subject-based) formula, which renders her declaration that she is infallible, to be infallible, as well as all else she accordingly declares.

And that disallows evangelical churches from even being called churches and having the authority to preach.

Moreover, the faith of the NT church was not one,

being presided over by a pope the whole church looked to as it supreme infallible head in Rome, and being taught that he was the "rock" of Mt. 16:18?

Or even a successor for the martyred apostle James (Acts 12:1,2) being chosen like Matthias was and after that manner (Acts 1, in order to keep the original number of apostles)?

And a separate sacerdotal class of believers titled "priests ," as they uniquely changed bread into human flesh and dispensing it to the masses to receive life in them and eternal life (RCs keep quoting Jn. 6:53,54 to us)?

And a hierarchical order of priests, bishops, Cardinals, etc., with ostentatious religious dress and titles, including "Most Reverend?"

And required (with rare exceptions) clerical celibacy, which presumes all such have that gift.

And incognizant (usually) souls being formally justified by interior holiness via sprinkling of water in recognition of proxy faith, and (usually) ending up becoming good enough to enter Heaven in purgatory ?

And a separate class of believers called “saints,

And praying to the departed, or angels, and before images?

And the apostles teaching Mary was born and kept sinless?

And a church that conformed to this world in using papal sanctioned physical oppression torture, burning and death to deal with theological dissent

Or who, having lost that power, treats even notorious manifestly impenitent public sinners as members in life and in death, in contrast to the NT means of disfellowship and spiritual discipline.

And which members overall come in near last in things such as evangelism, commitment, and personal Bible reading, the latter which it hindered for a long time, and later sanctions teaching millions such things as that OT miraculous stories are fables or folktales, etc.

And teaches that the deity Muslims worship (not as unknown) is the same as theirs.

And which boasts of unity while discouraging objectively searching the Scriptures in order to ascertain the veracity of RC doctrine, while (on the other hand) lacking certainty about all the things they must hold as certain, and seeing varying degrees of interpretation by the magisterium, as well in the great liberty they have to interpret Scripture in order to support Rome.

This must suffice for now.

220 posted on 07/26/2014 8:25:55 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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