The Hermeneutic of...Oh I Give Up.

Creative Minority Report ^ | 07/11/14 | Patrick Archbold

[Legatus]

Some Papal Quotes that somehow and in some way beyond my meager intellect are in continuity with each other, or something.

First Quote

Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441. ex cathedra (infallibly defined):
“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has persevered within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” http://www.ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/FLORENCE.HTM#4

Second Quote

“I’m not interested in converting Evangelicals to Catholicism. I want people to find Jesus in their own community. There are so many doctrines we will never agree on. Let’s not spend our time on those. Rather, let’s be about showing the love of Jesus.” --Pope Francis 2014

Yeah. Umm. So. Discuss. Or something.

Bonus Quotes for discussion purposes.

Pope PIUS IX, the Holy Office-- THE SYLLABUS OF ERRORS CONDEMNED :
15. Every man is free to embrace and profess that religion which, guided by the light of reason, he shall consider true. --condemned Allocution "Maxima quidem," June 9, 1862; Damnatio "Multiplices inter," June 10, 1851.
16. Man may, in the observance of any religion whatever, find the way of eternal salvation, and arrive at eternal salvation. --condemned Encyclical "Qui pluribus," Nov. 9, 1846.
17. Good hope at least is to be entertained of the eternal salvation of all those who are not at all in the true Church of Christ. -- condemned
Encyclical "Quanto conficiamur," Aug. 10, 1863, etc.

18. Protestantism is nothing more than another form of the same true Christian religion, in which form it is given to please God equally as in the Catholic Church. --condemned Encyclical "Noscitis," Dec. 8, 1849.
http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9syll.htm
ll.htm

[Legatus]

Yes seriously. The Catholic Church has taught in no uncertain terms that outside of her is no salvation, that’s one of the main reasons I became Catholic because I believed that. It would have been self-righteous of me to remain outside, it would have been hypocritical for me to remain outside. Now we have a pope saying “stay where you are” and I find that confusing and annoying. I could have saved my family a world of grief and agony if I’d just stuck it out 20 more years.

I brought my mother to tears when I told her I was entering the Catholic Church, my father didn’t speak to me for years. I gave up everything because I believed I had no choice if I wanted everlasting life and now pope Francis seems to be saying it was all for nothing.

My righteousness (such as it is) doesn’t come from me it’s entirely from God... as for hypocrisy, well, probably but I try to constantly remind myself that I am among the worst of sinners and my efforts are worthless outside of Christ.

I think you would say that anyone who rejects Christ is destined to hell, yes? I believe that part of rejecting Him is in rejecting His Church. You can’t have one without the other.

[JPX2011]

...meaning God called them to be His people and He will not repent of that. Those who think that Israel has been replaced or superseded are in for a rude awakening.

Which concerns our redemption how? God can do what he wants with the Jews I suppose. If all we have to do is confess that Christ is the Savior (the minimalist understanding) then the fate of the Jewish people is completely irrelevant to us. Except for those who make a hobby of quarterbacking end times prophecy.

P.S.: The Church is the New Israel.

[unread]

"Now it sure looks like if I’d just waited 20 years I could have stayed where I was with papal approval.

Don't let it bother you to much.... He also said That "You don't have to believe in God to go to heaven..."(?)

So....there you go...something to think about....

[Legatus]

He also said That "You don't have to believe in God to go to heaven..."(?)

That just boggles the mind, why would God "punish" someone who didn't believe in Him by making him spend eternity in His presence?!

[CynicalBear]

>>P.S.: The Church is the New Israel.<<

Revelation 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

[Popman]

I believe that part of rejecting Him is in rejecting His Church. You can’t have one without the other.

Matthew 17-18: If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

18“Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will bee bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will bef loosed in heaven.

19“Again, truly I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything they ask for, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven.

20For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them.

Tell me, how is it the Lord himself says take it to the church before the doctrine of apostolic ascension came into being ?

There was no Roman Catholic Church at the time ?

[narses]

[CynicalBear]

Acts 15:8 And God, who knows the heart, bore witness by granting them the holy Spirit just as he did us. 9 He made no distinction between us and them, for by faith he purified their hearts.

[narses]

“Jesus said to them again, ‘Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.’ And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.’ “

[CynicalBear]

You really don’t get it do you? We are told we have been given the Holy Spirit just as the apostles were and that there is no distinction between us and them. You can post that verse all you want. It doesn’t mean what you wish it did.

[narses]

[JPX2011]

Revelation 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

I sure hope the Smyrneans took heed and turned away from judaizing.

[Iscool]

I brought my mother to tears when I told her I was entering the Catholic Church, my father didn’t speak to me for years. I gave up everything because I believed I had no choice if I wanted everlasting life and now pope Francis seems to be saying it was all for nothing.

How did you determine the bible and your parents were wrong and the Catholic religion was right???

[Talisker]

[ebb tide]

They'll get that land and that Kingdom...

So why haven't you climbed onboard that gravy train?

[ebb tide]

You failed to quote the previous sentences:

>>6] And the apostles and ancients assembled to consider of this matter. [7] And when there had been much disputing, Peter, rising up, said to them: Men, brethren, you know, that in former days God made choice among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.<<

Christ was talking to his apostles, not Joe Blow.

[ebb tide]

Once again, what pre-Luther religion do you belong to?

[PieterCasparzen]

OK, I’ll go along with this. What’s optional then? The virgin birth? The divinity of Christ? The Trinity? The miracles? The crucifixion? The Resurrection?, etc, etc,... that’s all beyond that isolated verse. What are we to believe about Christ, everything except that he established a Church and not a library?

IMHO, you should study the Bible itself.

I mean that in the most helpful way possible.

I'm a programmer, I've dealt in common sense for decades for a living. It's just common sense to really "get" (understand) the "manual" yourself. As opposed to taking what teachers or study guides say - without verifying what they say about the "manual" is actually what the "manual" says.

The best "study guides" (which form the official stance on doctrinal basics) Presbyterians came up with are the http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/, and the http://www.reformed.org/documents/wsc/index.html and the http://www.reformed.org/documents/wlc_w_proofs/index.html.

In my humble opinion, I would ask myself if I would consider myself accepting the position of being the "leader" of all Christians on earth. The Church, after all... is Christ's. I'm sure we can all agree on that. It's the "Bride of Christ". Would you want to claim to be head of the "Bride of Christ" ?

Even in Churches that are corrupted, we know from Scripture that there is always the concept of a remnant of true believers.

That being said, the Bible in various verses tells us that we are to seek out a Bible-believing Church and become part of that community. The Bible tells us to reject false preachers. The Bible tells us to rely on the Bible as our rule and guide in faith and practice.

The large Presbyterian denominations have abandoned their own doctrinal standard, the Westminster Confession of Faith.

[PieterCasparzen]

Regarding Jews and salvation, you can consult the book of Romans, it’s fairly straightforward to understand.

[piusv]

Francis has said the following in a book he co-wrote with a Rabbi before his election:

"The Church officially recognizes that the People of Israel continue to be the Chosen People. Nowhere does it say: ‘You lost the game, now it is our turn.’ It is a recognition of the People of Israel"

So, either it is Catholic teaching that they are still the Chosen People or Francis' comment is heretical.