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To: Mrs. Don-o
Your quote from Canon Law misses the point. The Catholic Church does not impose celibate vocations on people. If they choose it, it is their choice.

Nope...when this edict/rule, whatever you want to call it, was issued in 1139, it said those of subdeacon and up with wives or concubines are to be deprived of their position and ecclesiastical benefice. This was being imposed on people by the RCC.

When you tell me you're depriving me of something you're telling me I cannot do it. That is what the Council said in 1139. You want to continue to be a priest? You can't be married or you lose your job. I wonder if these priests divorced in order to keep their jobs?

If so, the RCC was responsible for divorce.

This is what happens when you start instituting man-made rules verses what the Bible has said was clearly ok. And that it is ok for elders, bishops, and deacons to be married if they wanted to.

Do individuals who want to be "priests" in the RCC know this going into the job? Yes they do. Can they get married? Not according to this Council's ruling they can't.

The actual wording of Canon 6 from Second Lateran Council 1139 6. We also decree that those in the orders of subdeacon and above who have taken wives or concubines are to be deprived of their position and ecclesiastical benefice. For since they ought to be in fact and in name temples of God, vessels of the Lord and sanctuaries of the holy Spirit, it is unbecoming that they give themselves up to marriage and impurity. http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Councils/ecum10.htm

40 posted on 07/08/2014 5:37:27 AM PDT by ealgeone (obama, borderof)
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To: ealgeone
Ealgone, your misunderstanding comes about because you are only thinly acquainted with Church history or even the documents of the Councils, and you are picking out proof-texts rather than looking at the entire proceedings of the Councils and the practice of the Church.

By the time of the Lateran Council (1139), marriage for most clerics had been in practice minimized or prohibited for 800 years. The Council of Nicaea (325 AD) had prohibited the presence in the house of a cleric of a younger woman (so called virgines subintroductae) --- clerics could only be honorably in the same house with a grandmother, mother, aunt, or sister.

In cities, most clerics lived in a shared household with other subdeacons, deacons, and priests, in a monastic-like community: there was no opportunity to court a woman, nor would their superiors permit it. Plus, even for priests who served alone in villages or the countryside, many local synods and many bishops prohibited marriage for all clergy within their provinces or dioceses, in order to avoid the worldly entanglements of dynastic marriage.

Let me explain what I mean by that. In addition to the overall prizing of consecrated virginity in both the East and the West, the West saw celibacy as a way to avoid political entanglements.

Moreso than in the East, the Church in the West had to wage a protracted struggle against secular power. Bishops were often landowners and way too enmeshed with the political nobility. (Look up “Investiture Controversy” and you will see that reforming popes struggled AGAINST this for centuries.) Marriage was very much about the alliance of families, and families were very much about the possession of landed estates.

If a bishop, abbot or prominent priest had sons and daughters, he’d be even more deeply caught up in dynastic marriage politics: marrying this daughter to that duke, and this son to that princess, and forming alliances with powerful families for all the political/economic/social benefits that would accrue.

Trying to secure the independence of bishops from the temporal Powers That Be was a huge job, it took centuries to settle and it’s not what I’d call “settled” even yet. But marriages would force priests and, even more so, bishops, to become even more deeply enmeshed in securing titles of nobility, access to estates and lands, royal alliances and the rest of it for all their children.

The Church in the West was striving mightily to steer clear of that whole web of entanglements. (Not so much in the Eastern Empire, which lasted 1,000 years longer than the Western Empire, and where Church and Empire were much more willingly and tightly interwoven.)

Celibacy --- the avoidance of ongoing dynastic interconnections --- became an honorable way to secure more political independence from temporal power, and hence more power to be “in this world but not of it.”

IN THIS CONTEXT, it came about that the Lateran Council outright prohibited clerical marriage. It has been "in practice" discouraged and even prohibited regionally, but there was too much unevenness of enforcement, and even worse, you had the scandal of priests living with women to whom they were not licitly or validly married. (These are referred to as "concubines" --- those in unlawful marriages.)

The Lateran, a reforming council, said "Let's make it plain, simple and official: clerics are to be celibate, period". They were simply confirming Church-wide what was already the practice established locally by synods and dioceses for centuries.

So it isn't a matter of Rome barging in and breaking up marriages and causing divorces. It was putting an end to clerical dynastic marriages and/or concubinage, on a Church-wide rather than regional basis.

Do you understand that?

45 posted on 07/08/2014 8:17:04 AM PDT by Mrs. Don-o ("Let us commend ourselves and each other, and all our life unto Christ our God." Liturgy of St.John)
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