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To: CTrent1564

ALL?

Wowsa-jowsa that is one HUGE assumption, in face of the so very many highly problematic conditions of history which indicate something of the opposite -- enough to blow that word "all" to kingdom-come.

Are you aware that stories of the Ascension of Mary (either bodily or not precisely bodily) did not begin to arise until very late in the 4th and/or in the 5th century?

Previously -- was it on this thread or another? -- but yesterday say, you spoke of the dormition of Mary and the Ascension of Mary as to having been one and the same thing?

Those two are not the same concept. It does no good to link the two if trying to push the ascension of Mary stories back further than there is any record for --at all, (though I am not saying here that is in fact what you yourself were attempting) while other documentary evidence prior to that era fails to include mentions or even much allusion towards the latter concept.

One can even come across ECF mentions which would indicate that they themselves ever heard of such a thing as the Ascension of Mary.

What then? Should it be contemplated that she did not herself Ascend until some long centuries (like about twice as long as the United States of America has been in existence) after her own natural life had ended?

For there are the Dormition stories, which do fairly well establish that she did indeed, as to her earthly flesh --die, though the term dormition was gentle way to put it, as a 'falling asleep' which sort of terminology was used commonly enough for others also with this likely for reason of the expectation of eventual resurrection (the dead in Christ shall rise, as it is written).

Show us the earliest Dormition of Mary accounts, perhaps a small collection of them -- but minus later fiddlings or adjustments made by later scribblers.

Show your work.

Assertions --- are near to being worthless. Millions of Muslims assert Muhammad was God's prophet -- and last one without those assertions making that be actual fact.

129 posted on 06/24/2014 9:13:09 AM PDT by BlueDragon (the wicked flee when none pursueth, but the righteous...are as bold as a lion)
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To: BlueDragon

BlueDragon:

Ascension of Mary is not a Catholic Teaching. In fact, that would be heretical. Only Christ Ascended into Heaven. The Assumption of Mary is the Western theological term that is called the Dormition of Mary in the Orthodox Church. The question of what happened to Mary and thus the Dormition is an Eastern Theological tradition, and one that has its earliest celebrations in Liturgy in the 4th century.

The Assumption of Mary means that Mary was assumed by God’s power into Heaven after she died or fell asleep. The feast day of what Catholics Call the “Assumption of Mary” and what the ORthodox Call the “Dormition of Mary” are on August 15th in both CHurches.

And yes, Mary being assumed into heaven is connected the paschal mystery of Christ because anyone who goes to heaven will be “assumed into heaven” by God’s power, not their own and as the Creeds state, I believe in the resurrection of the body, etc, that is in essence connected to being assumed into heaven by God.


138 posted on 06/24/2014 10:33:43 AM PDT by CTrent1564
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To: BlueDragon

BlueDragon:

Here is a readers digest summary of hte Dormition of the Theotokos from a Greek Orthodox CHurch Website. I have a good understanding of Orthodox Theology but I am not Orthodox so it is better to let their own Church sites explain their teachings.

http://www.goarch.org/special/listen_learn_share/dormition

So the Assumption of Mary in Catholicism and Dormition are describing the same thing, although there are a few differences in what happened with Mary when she died. I think in Catholic Theology, one can hold that she died, but did not experience corruption in the tomb [which is the most held position] or she was assumed before she died. The way the Dogma was proclaimed “having completed the course of her earthly life” leaves open both views in Catholic Doctrine. In the Orthodox view, Mary did die “fell asleep” before being taken up.

If you look at Orthodox Liturgies, they speak of Mary being taken up into Heaven which is consistent with the Catholic view of “Mary being Assumed into Heaven” In Catholic Tradition [Rome and the West], things get defined, vs the Greek East, things are left more in the realm of Mystery and are celebrated in the Liturgy of the Church so they are believed as part of the faith, but not given precise dogmatic terminology which is what Rome has traditionally done on questions.

And I am aware that it wasn’t until the 4th century that the question of what Happened to Mary’s body became a subject of Theological inquiry. Clearly by the time of Saint Epiphanius of Salamis, it was a question theologians were debating for he writes that nobody new whether she had died or not [circa 377AD]


139 posted on 06/24/2014 10:51:52 AM PDT by CTrent1564
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To: BlueDragon
they themselves ever heard of such a thing as the Ascension of Mary

Mary did not ascend into Heaven....she was assumed into Heaven (Taken)

143 posted on 06/24/2014 9:07:10 PM PDT by terycarl
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