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To: Petrosius

Really, we agree on many facts, but not all. We do not agree on your Rome-centered rubric of history.

In Romanism - sola ecclesia - or sola magisterium, you simply outsource belief to Rome. You can refer to that as a protective arrangement and it is one form. What Romans never consider is what they lose by this arrangement. How could they and support the dogma of sola Rome? It must remain perfect to the roman mind, or the story is broken.

Rome resisting liberalism? The evidence in her parishes contradicts this. In Belgium alone, more than 80% of Romans never darken the door of a church. Here in the USA, many studies show Romans do not believe the teachings of Rome.

Protestantism is a broad word the way you wield it. Groups of liberals are cut off like cancer from Bible believing Christian groups - yet it serves the purpose of many Romans to set them up as straw men. It could be reversed easily. We could call all the crazy offshoots of Rome “Catholics”.

Sola Scriptura - the belief that inspired Scripture is sufficient for salvation, maturity and doctrine - has led to deep faith, the evangelization of the earth, ekklesia around the world, etc.

Protestantism doesn’t “seek to place authority in God alone.” It recognizes that His authority is over us. His Word is the last Word in all matters of faith and practice.

Cancerous offshoots are cut off. This seems to please Romans as they get to raise the number of “protestant” denominations. They eventually have to merge to keep their buildings as they die off. They die off because they abandon the One Source of Life.

The Christians who continue to know God, trust His word and follow Him continue on in pursuit of all He desires. Their ekklesia continue to grow. Our one ekklesia baptizes between 120-160 new Christians each quarter. Not born into the faith infants. Individuals who were far from God, tattooed, pierced, etc. - individuals who heard and responded to the Gospel and want to announce to the world that they are now a follower of Christ. They are now lives changed by Christ.

It is always and forever about His Glory, His Gospel of Grace, His Bride and His Body.

It is never about churches, denominations, etc.


134 posted on 06/14/2014 7:38:37 AM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion ( "I didn't leave the Central Oligarchy Party. It left me." - Ronaldus Maximus)
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To: aMorePerfectUnion
In Romanism - sola ecclesia - or sola magisterium, you simply outsource belief to Rome.…How could they and support the dogma of sola Rome?

I must take exception to this characterization. First, it is not sola ecclesia. The Catholic Church fully recognizes the authority of the Bible. Where Protestants accuse us of departing from the Bible in truth is departing from Protestant interpretations of the Bible. The many debates here on FR about the meaning of various Bible passages highlights this. Secondly, while Protestants like to portray Catholicism as only Rome, in truth it is the entire Catholic Church. This ecumenical or universal nature of the Church is seen in the exercise of the Ordinary Magisterium of church teaching and in the Extraordinary Magisterium of church councils. Yes, the pope does exercise a unique role but it is only as the head of the universal church.

Rome resisting liberalism? The evidence in her parishes contradicts this. In Belgium alone, more than 80% of Romans never darken the door of a church. Here in the USA, many studies show Romans do not believe the teachings of Rome.

Yes, I acknowledge the damage done by Modernism at the academic and popular levels. But this was because of the reluctance of church authorities after Vatican II to discipline dissent. But these errors were never accept by the Magisterium. Catholics could always discover the falsehood of what was being taught locally by referring to official documents of the church. A rejection of a false "Spirit of Vatican II" is now taking place but it will take time for this to spread in the pews. The younger clergy now being ordained are particularly devoted to orthodox teaching. But this appeal to a magisterial authority is lacking within Protestantism where disagreement leads to fragmentation.

Protestantism is a broad word the way you wield it. Groups of liberals are cut off like cancer from Bible believing Christian groups - yet it serves the purpose of many Romans to set them up as straw men.

I do indeed recognize the broad split between Bible-believing (evangelical/fundamentalist) Protestants and their liberal cousins but they are both the heirs of the Reformation. Sola scriptura planted the seed of subjectivism which lead to liberal Protestantism and we find this liberalism residing in historically Protestant denominations such as Anglicans, Presbyterians, Lutheran, etc. Without the Reformation this liberal Protestantism would not exist.

Sola Scriptura - the belief that inspired Scripture is sufficient for salvation, maturity and doctrine - has led to deep faith, the evangelization of the earth, ekklesia around the world, etc.

More nations were brought to Christ through the ages by the Catholic Church than by Protestantism which is why the Catholic Church now has over one billion members world-wide. Indeed, all of the Protestant nations of Europe were first evangelized by the Catholic Church.

Protestantism doesn’t “seek to place authority in God alone.” It recognizes that His authority is over us. His Word is the last Word in all matters of faith and practice.

Actually it is the individual's personal interpretation of the Bible that becomes the last word. Thus the fragmentation of Protestantism.

Cancerous offshoots are cut off.

And which denomination of Protestantism is the true ekklesia which has cut off all the others, and how large is it compared to the full number of those who call themselves Christian?

135 posted on 06/14/2014 9:09:48 AM PDT by Petrosius
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