Replies

From OUR PERSPECTIVE we have NO EXCUSE.

But think a minute. What brought me to be sitting in that restaurant having dinner ? What brought that woman to that restaurant that evening ? She didn’t know I was going to be there. I didn’t know she was going to be there.

We were both living our lives, and our lives intersected.

From our human perspective, we have free will. And we do not know what our own future holds.

Will we walk out our front door tomorrow and a piano falls on our head ? Will our flight crash ? When we blow through that stopsign, will we just breeze right through the intersection ? Or will we be crushed from the side by a fully-loaded 18-wheeler ?

Now let’s consider God’s viewpoint.

There are Bible verses which say God predestinated the elect. You certainly can look them up and study them.

What of everyone else ? (human sniffle, sniffle, whine)

But it’s not fawewww ! What about the other people that God did not predestinate ?

Woops, we’re thinking like humans again.

Let’s be logical instead. If those who are saved, S, are predestinated to be saved, what about NOT S ? NOT S (not saved) are not part of that group S (saved). NOT S were not predestinated to be saved. By inference can we conclude that NOT S were predestinated to not be saved ? Where NOT S predestinated to be NOT S, if S were predestinated to be S ?

The only flimisical argument available to us puny humans is that God predestinated S to be saved, and the rest.... he leaves that entirely up to them. They’re not predestinated to be saved, they’re not predestinated to damnation. God leaves it entirely up to them, whatever they want to do. Maybe God influences them along the way, but God does not really know what their choice will be. Well, the Bible tells that God is ominscient, he knows the future. Hmmm... I’ve got to get my flimsical tale really flexible now. Well, he knows what they will do in the future, those who are not predestinated to be saved. He knows what their ultimate choice will be. God set the whole heavens and earth in motion, mind you - and he set them in motion such that he could predestinate S being saved. But he actually did not force the NOT S to not be saved. All God’s plans could have worked out in countless different ways, depending on the choice that every member (millions of people) in NOT S wound up making for themselves.

Will Pieter commit adultery with that woman he meets in the restaurant while on a business trip ? God didn’t know what Pieter’s choice would be. God had two entirely different versions of God’s plan for the world, one if Pieter had sex with the woman, and a different one if Pieter didn’t. Because if Pieter commits adultery with that woman, his life and the woman’s life will take an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT PATH than if Pieter does not commit adultery with that woman.

And so on, for millions of people.

Do you see how nonsensically impossible it is to have a plan for the entire universe which determines what will happen far into the future, but in that plan leave an enormous space of possibilities which are indeterminate at the time the plan is made ?

Do you see how from Pieter’s perspective - he had no idea how events in his life would unfold up until now and how they will unfold in the future ? So from Pieter’s point of view he has the full capability to make choices as his life happens ?

A friend of mine tells me this story:

His softball team flew to Yakima for a tournament. There was one member of the team that was a strong Christian and very much loved his wife.

After the first day, they went to a local sports bar to relax, play some pool and talk about the days events. In the bar was this “smokin’ hot chick” that everyone was oogling - except for this Christian guy. And the girl seemed to thrive on the oogling.

So, what happened? Yep, the Christian guy was her conquest. She slept with him. Maybe her name was Bathsheba, I dunno.

But anyway, they got back to Seattle and deplaned on the tarmac. There were the wives waiting. That guy went straight to his wife and told her what happened and apologized. Yes, she forgave him.

You are right. There is no excuse. But Jesus died for us anyway.

BTW, I’m not seeing your point in the rest of the post. I grant that God trying to explain his full plan to us is like trying to explain the color red to a person that sees only in grayscale. But God made us in His image and he does understand how we think and has exposed His eternity and his plan as well as He desires. Now I see as through a glass darkly, but then fact to face.

I’m a human being. I can have a mind and a body. If I’m on a business trip and a whore throws herself at me, in the reality of what it means to be a human being - I HAVE A CHOICE TO MAKE IN MY MIND.

All right, so far...

But think a minute. What brought me to be sitting in that restaurant having dinner ? What brought that woman to that restaurant that evening ? She didn’t know I was going to be there. I didn’t know she was going to be there. We were both living our lives, and our lives intersected.

You leave your conclusion unspoken, here... and I'd like you to say it explicitly, if you're willing. You list a good many factors beyond your direct control; yes? And you also believe that God is sovreign, and that He orchestrated those factors; yes? So... please tell me if you're saying that "God is responsible for that man's sin", or not.

From our human perspective, we have free will. And we do not know what our own future holds.

Are you saying that, from God's perspective, we do NOT have free will?

Now let’s consider God’s viewpoint. There are Bible verses which say God predestinated the elect. You certainly can look them up and study them.

I have. I'd suggest that your (apparently Calvinist) definition of "predestination" is not the only hypothesis which fits those references... and your (apparently Calvinist) definition also makes absolute nonsense out of the vast majority of the Bible (and common sense).

What of everyone else ? (human sniffle, sniffle, whine) But it’s not fawewww ! What about the other people that God did not predestinate ?

:) Er... friend: melodrama can sometimes be entertaining, but it's no substitute for logic.

Woops, we’re thinking like humans again.

Simple mockery of an opposing position (or opponent) is not a valid way to prove your point, FRiend; it's an evasion, at best, and an ad hominem fallacy, at worst. The word "justice" (which I prefer to its weaker cousin, "fairness") actually does have a definition... and it's not at all inappropriate for anyone to ask whether [x] satisfies or violates that definition. That's what I seek to do, at any rate. I assure you, I'm not making any cheap appeals to emotion and/or sympathy.

Let’s be logical instead.

This implies, of course, that I was being illogical up to now, but... let that pass.

If those who are saved, S, are predestinated to be saved, what about NOT S?

Hold on. It depends rather inescapably on your definition of "predestined". (Remember your Socrates? There are three things needed for a sound argument: clear definitions, true premises, and a conclusion which logically follows from those premises [i.e. no fallacies].) Does "predestined" mean "those whom God, from all eternity, knew would ultimately be saved"? Or does it mean "those whom God positively willed to have guaranteed salvation"? Those are very different things. You mean the latter exclusively, I think... whereas I admit only a few of the ultimately-saved into the latter category (the Blessed Virgin Mary, for example), while admitting all the ultimately-saved into the former category.

Case in point: with the first definition, "S" would not equal "P"; with the second definition, "S" would equal "P". So as to your question: "not S" would equal "not P" only using the second definition (and that's only because there are no other options--it's not true, in general)... not if using the first. Your job, then, is to show that the second definition (i.e. "God positively chooses to create souls who will be damned, apart from their free choices, no matter what they do.") is correct. Good luck, FRiend!

NOT S (not saved) are not part of that group S (saved).

That's true, regardless of the above question; yes.

NOT S were not predestinated to be saved.

There's your first logical error: you assume (without making it explicit) that "S = P" and "not S = not P" (and the second does not logically follow from the first, in the general case, anyway: "a -> b" does not logically imply "not a -> not b"; the true statement "if x is a multiple of 10, then x is an even #" does not logically imply "if x is not a multiple of 10, then x is not an even #"; consider x = 6, for example)... neither of which have been proven, yet, and neither of which are logically implied by the other.

By inference can we conclude that NOT S were predestinated to not be saved?

No. See above.

Where NOT S predestinated to be NOT S, if S were predestinated to be S ?

Again, no. This would be the fallacy of affirming the inverse (i.e. assuming that "a -> b" implies "~a -> ~b").

The only flimisical argument available to us puny humans is that God predestinated S to be saved, and the rest.... he leaves that entirely up to them. They’re not predestinated to be saved, they’re not predestinated to damnation. God leaves it entirely up to them, whatever they want to do. Maybe God influences them along the way, but God does not really know what their choice will be.

Hold on. You've made a quiet (and illogical) jump from "God leaves them free" to "God doesn't know what their choice will be". Those two statements aren't at all the same thing; you know that, right?

If you're working on the assumption that "if God knows [x] from all eternity, then there's no way for [x] to have been other, and there's no way for [x] to have been free", then you're using a misunderstanding of God's Nature. God is ETERNAL--which does NOT mean that "God lives an infinite number of years". God, in His Divine Nature, is UTTERLY OUTSIDE of time; He does not "remember" things in the past, and He does not "foresee" things in the future; He *watches them happen, in an eternal 'NOW'!*. God knows what I'll be doing in 10 years, because He's there, watching me do it, as we speak! It isn't true that God is "exclusively in the year 2014", and simply "has a perfect memory" and "perfect predictive powers"; He's in all times, and all times are "now" to Him. God doesn't "remember" the crucifixion of Christ; He's there, watching it as we speak.

If God were within our timestream--if He were "forecasting" all future events perfectly--then that would be fatal for free will. But there is nothing impossible about God "knowing" my free choice in the future... because God IS WATCHING ME PERFORM that free act, eternally, as we speak.

Put it this way: let's imagine two possible situations:

1) God "programmed" the damned to be damned, and created them with that fact in mind.
2) God knew from all eternity that the damned woudl freely choose damnation.

Given only that we know that some will be saved and some will not be saved, how would you ever tell which situation is the correct one? You couldn't; there's not enough data. For anyone to insist that "God certainly willed (positively) that a portion of humanity will be damned" is for him to insist on a raw opinion, bereft of proof. (I do wonder what you do with 1 Timothy 2:4! How can God "will that all be saved" if He freely chooses to damn them from the outset? This is not a teary-eyed appeal to emotion; this is a logical demand for a reconciliation of an apparent contradiction.)

Do you see how nonsensically impossible it is to have a plan for the entire universe which determines what will happen far into the future, but in that plan leave an enormous space of possibilities which are indeterminate at the time the plan is made ?

Given your false definition of "determines", in your first phrase, I'd have to say "no".