Posted on 05/26/2014 7:44:27 PM PDT by discipler
When it comes to the topic of if a Christian can fall from God's grace, the "once saved, always saved" people bring up the sheep example. Very oddly, they miss something.
Jesus said, "28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 “My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand." John 10:28f. Jesus also said earlier, "11 I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep. 12 “He who is a hired hand, and not a shepherd, who is not the owner of the sheep, sees the wolf coming, and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them. 13 “He flees because he is a hired hand and is not concerned about the sheep. 14 “I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me," John 10:11ff.
What do the Calvinistic "perseverence of the saints" folks miss in these verses?
What they miss is two things, 1] the wolves can and are destroying sheep, and 2] sheep sometimes stray from the good shepherd. The prodigal son had a good father and yet he was able to leave. While we faithful have great security in Christ, when we are weak in faith and when we listen to the false teachers, we can be led astray and lose our salvation.
Romans 8:37-39 is a good passage to show that external things cannot separate us from the love of God. That equates with great security for our salvation in Christ. So don't lose heart. But a rebellious Christian can depart from God. As sheep sometimes go astray from the flock, so Christians can quit listening to the voice of the great Shepherd and go the path of destruction. Said in love, Discipler
1 John 3:14
We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love each other.
John 5:24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.
John 6:47 Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.
You must examine “who” Hebrews Ch 6: verses 1-7 is referring to, it isn’t just a Christian, it’s those who are SPIRIT FILLED...and yes, Christians are, but not as ministers who operate in the laying on of hands and operating in the gifts of the Spirit.
Learn the place where Gifts of the Spirit and laying on of hands are used, then you will understand Hebrews Chapter 6: 1-7. The first verse is clear about elementary teachings and maturity, which confuses some, however, this chapter of Hebrews is trying to let people know there is more that you can have here on earth but it comes at a price/risk.
Salvation is for you, Baptism of Holy Spirit is for others....read ACTS Chapter One...Jesus explained it to his disciples (Comforter) that it would come after he arose into heaven, and it is still available until he returns again....that hasn’t happened yet.
This acknowledgement does not jeapordize the SALVATION of those not operating in that arena...so those who argue this is not truth are just not understanding what Hebrews Ch six is really about.
This Chapter is about a specific type of Christian, and it does not lessen the importance of other Christians, who don’t operate this way or are of different denomination etc because Denominations are man’s invention not God’s....and it isn’t just one failure or sin that causes this loss of Salvation, it’s a determined decision that involves the leaving of the fold and returning to the world and denouncing Christ permanently.
Sins can be forgiven through repentance even in the Baptism of the Holy Spirit filled as humans are not perfect. (Note that I am speaking of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in other tongues and operating in the nine gifts of the spirit.)
Everyone gets Christ and the measure of the Holy Spirit that comes with that, when they accept Christ. Water Baptism is for all. However, this is a whole separate experience explained by Paul in Corinthians. There is a scripture that says ‘there is only one unforgivable sin and that is blasphemy against the Holy Ghost”...cursing God and I’m not talking about the word people use regularly, it’s a permanent denial after he has given one all there is to give here on earth....and he is rejected.
Those people who are spirit filled exist in almost every denomination that claims Jesus is the son of God and Savior, including Catholicism, and you can research that in Notre Dame history where 3000 where baptised in the Holy Ghost about forty years ago publicly, while assembled at the college. It was a Day of Pentecost here in America that started a huge revival in all denominations. That movement spread for years with Worhip, Praise and Miracles.
One other huge ACTS event was at the turn of the twentieth century in San Francisco, Amy McPherson and other evangelist s came out of that movement. Kathryn Kuhlman, and even Oral Roberts were influenced by the Haight Asbury revival.
A scripture “The gifts and calling of God are without repentence” means that anyone for example who has a talent for singing can use it for God or use it for the world, etc. It will not be taken away, it was a gift. The same is true about the ministry...some fleece the sheep, no doubt. However those gifts were intended to be used to save souls. All those teaching others will be judged by God eventually.
Hope this helps.
There is a lot of info online you can read about what I am saying. There is a book by an Episciple Priest named Bennett (30+ years ago) called ‘Nine O Clock in the Morning”..simple and it might help you understand, if it is still in print.
Many of us received our Salvation during this huge movement of the Spirit....
I am not disputing any of the verses you are providing here. All of them use third-person indicative present tense. However, John 3:16 does not.
With all due respect, how can you vouch for the context of the verse when you are saying that it has a grammatical error?
You must understand who that Scripture is talking to...ACTS Chapter One, when Jesus said the Comforter would come and the Spirit would fill them so they could take the message to the world, and it will exist until he returns again and that hasn’t happened yet.
The Hebrews Chapter Six is for a specific type of Christian in ministry involved in the NINE GIFTS OF THE SPIRIT , clearly explained in I Corinthians ALL of Chapter 12.
If you read slowly Hebrews Chapter Six starting verses 1-7 you will understand “WHO” that chapter is for and it is specific, it isn’t for everyone...that was my point. Along with the fact that there is a category where one can lose their Salvation, so there is not a blanket ‘once saved always saved Salvation for all’....but you must understand WHO HE IS TALKING TO....
Yes, those who have experienced all the gifts God can give them here on earth and operate accordingly, I Corinthians all of Chapter 12 for a clearer picture. No the gifts were never done away with, and there are millions who are Spirit filled today.
Saul of Taursus became Paul, who was not filled with the Spirit until Jesus had already ascended into Heaven and he appeared to him in the Spirit on the road to Damascus, so Pauls statement of when those things will be done away with has yet to come, when Jesus returns.
RESEARCH the 3000 at Notre Dame who were infilled like the Book of Acts about 40-50 years ago publicly in an Assembly at the college, that movement started another world wide revival that lasted until about ten years ago. Christian persecution by Islam and others escalated and then th ‘Great FallingAaway was becoming evident with all that we discuss here developing with abortion, gay rights, public school attacks on religions...lots of those churches that had been filled were beginning to lose converts. There were previous large visitations of the Holy Spirit like in ACTS here in USA and other nations which began huge mass conversions and revivals throughout history.
whosoever believes in Him . . . have eternal life.
This is what you are saying it says. This is grammatically incorrect.
nope...you said a Christian could lose their salvation based on this verse. I asked you specific questions as to how and could they ever get it back. You didn't answer these.
your tag says you take the Bible literally. a literal reading of that text in Hebrews says once you lose it you can't get it back.
Again, I'll ask you under what sin(s) does a Christian committ to lose their salvation?
How do you know if you've lost it?
Can you get it back?
Evidently reading comprehension is not your strong suit...maybe an english professor can help you understand what you read, it’s all there....good grief.
Well, when someone resorts to snarky answers it means they can't or won't answer the questions. That tells me all I need to know.
It's been fun chatting.
I will no longer contribute to this part of the conversation.
You were given the full information but decided to be a butt head and ignore it, pretending you know didn’t get an answer ...I say let GOD be THE JUDGE of your behavior and mockery from now on. Goodbye.
You are interpreting Jesus' words with a predetermined idea that salvation CAN be lost. Note...Jesus does not say an unfruitful person will be sent to hell. What it certainly CAN mean is Jesus will remove an unfruitful person from: ministry, from having influence until the person repents and becomes fruitful again or Jesus will take an unfruitful person home (he dies so that his unfruitful actions do not cause shame to the name of Christ). Once it is understood that we can do nothing of ourselves and we must surrender our lives to Christ, so that HIS righteousness works within us, someone who may have been unfruitful before can, through the power of God, become a good and faithful servant of God. So, I disagree, Jesus is NOT warning his disciples about losing their salvation. Since salvation is not gotten by our works and merit, it certainly is not KEPT by them, either. That is what GRACE is all about.
You want a verse that says "HAS everlasting life"?:
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. (John 5:24)
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on them. (John 3:36)
Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life. (John 6:47)
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. (John 10:28)
Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. (I John 5:12)
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. (I John 5:13)
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