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To: CTrent1564
So, in the context of the NT epistles use of Bishop/Presbyter/Deacon, we have starting from Saint Clement of Rome, Saint Ignatius of Antioch, Saint Polycarp, all before 150AD [in Clement’s case before 100AD] writing on these terms. We have Numerous Fathers in the late 2nd and 3rd century writing on these terms [Saint Ireneaus of Lyons, Saint Hippolytus of Rome, Origen, Saint Cyprian of Carthage, and the consensus theological development and writings on Bishop/Presbyter/Deacon are there.

To my knowledge PolyCarp never used the word priest...And doing a little research of some of the church fathers I find this from Clement regarding your Eucharist...

But we are God-taught, and glory in the name of Christ. How then are we not to regard the apostle as attaching this sense to the milk of the babes? And if we who preside over the Churches are shepherds after the image of the good Shepherd, and you the sheep, are we not to regard the Lord as preserving consistency in the use of figurative speech, when He speaks also of the milk of the flock? And to this meaning we may secondly accommodate the expression, "I have given you milk to drink, and not given you food, for you are not yet able," regarding the meat not as something different from the milk, but the same in substance. For the very same Word is fluid and mild as milk, or solid and compact as meat. And entertaining this view, we may regard the proclamation of the Gospel, which is universally diffused, as milk; and as meat, faith, which from instruction is compacted into a foundation, which, being more substantial than hearing, is likened to meat, and assimilates to the soul itself nourishment of this kind. Elsewhere the Lord, in the Gospel according to John, brought this out by symbols, when He said: "Eat my flesh, and drink my blood;" John 6:34 describing distinctly by metaphor the drinkable properties of faith and the promise, by means of which the Church, like a human being consisting of many members, is refreshed and grows, is welded together and compacted of both—of faith, which is the body, and of hope, which is the soul; as also the Lord of flesh and blood.

"Eat my flesh," He says, "and drink my blood." John 6:53-54 Such is the suitable food which the Lord ministers, and He offers His flesh and pours forth His blood, and nothing is wanting for the children's growth. O amazing mystery! We are enjoined to cast off the old and carnal corruption, as also the old nutriment, receiving in exchange another new regimen, that of Christ, receiving Him if we can, to hide Him within; and that, enshrining the Saviour in our souls, we may correct the affections of our flesh.

But you are not inclined to understand it thus, but perchance more generally. Hear it also in the following way. The flesh figuratively represents to us the Holy Spirit; for the flesh was created by Him. The blood points out to us the Word, for as rich blood the Word has been infused into life; and the union of both is the Lord, the food of the babes— the Lord who is Spirit and Word. The food— that is, the Lord Jesus— that is, the Word of God, the Spirit made flesh, the heavenly flesh sanctified.

here

Chapter 40. Let Us Preserve in the Church the Order Appointed by God.

These things therefore being manifest to us, and since we look into the depths of the divine knowledge, it behooves us to do all things in [their proper] order, which the Lord has commanded us to perform at stated times. He has enjoined offerings [to be presented] and service to be performed [to Him], and that not thoughtlessly or irregularly, but at the appointed times and hours. Where and by whom He desires these things to be done, He Himself has fixed by His own supreme will, in order that all things, being piously done according to His good pleasure, may be acceptable unto Him. Those, therefore, who present their offerings at the appointed times, are accepted and blessed; for inasmuch as they follow the laws of the Lord, they sin not. For his own peculiar services are assigned to the high priest, and their own proper place is prescribed to the priests, and their own special ministrations devolve on the Levites. The layman is bound by the laws that pertain to laymen.

Chapter 41. Continuation of the Same Subject.

Let every one of you, brethren, give thanks to God in his own order, living in all good conscience, with becoming gravity, and not going beyond the rule of the ministry prescribed to him. Not in every place, brethren, are the daily sacrifices offered, or the peace-offerings, or the sin-offerings and the trespass-offerings, but in Jerusalem only. And even there they are not offered in any place, but only at the altar before the temple, that which is offered being first carefully examined by the high priest and the ministers already mentioned. Those, therefore, who do anything beyond that which is agreeable to His will, are punished with death. You see, brethren, that the greater the knowledge that has been vouchsafed to us, the greater also is the danger to which we are exposed.

That's a pretty strange thing there...Clement is speaking to Jews who are under the law...There are priests, daily animal sacrifices...And yet it is addressed to the church...However, Jesus is not mentioned...And their ministrations 'devolve' on the Levites???

Gotta admit I don't get it unless someone other than Clement stuck this in there to justify a priesthood in the church...And then there's this:

Chapter 42. The Order of Ministers in the Church.

The apostles have preached the gospel to us from the Lord Jesus Christ; Jesus Christ [has done so] from God. Christ therefore was sent forth by God, and the apostles by Christ. Both these appointments, then, were made in an orderly way, according to the will of God. Having therefore received their orders, and being fully assured by the resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ, and established in the word of God, with full assurance of the Holy Ghost, they went forth proclaiming that the kingdom of God was at hand. And thus preaching through countries and cities, they appointed the first fruits [of their labours], having first proved them by the Spirit, to be bishops and deacons of those who should afterwards believe. Nor was this any new thing, since indeed many ages before it was written concerning bishops and deacons. For thus says the Scripture in a certain place, "I will appoint their bishops in righteousness, and their deacons in faith."

What a contrast...Here, we have what one would expect...Jesus is mentioned...Talks about pro-resurrection...Discusses bishops, deacons and not a single mention of priests...

Looks like Clement wasn't so Catholic after all...

146 posted on 05/22/2014 5:40:41 PM PDT by Iscool
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To: Iscool

Iscool:

He wrote on Bishops and Deacons. Polcarp was a Bishop and he did mention presbyters and Deacons when he wrote to the Philippians.

The entire writing of Clement has Eucharistic overtone the offerings and service to be offered is pointing to Eucharist and Liturgical worship and No, Clement wrote to the Christian community at the Church of Corinth.


151 posted on 05/22/2014 6:44:36 PM PDT by CTrent1564
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To: Iscool

Iscool:

First off, I think it is neat you are actually reading the Church Fathers. As for Saint Clement of Rome, I linked Chapter 44 from the CCEL site which as the Reformed Church History P. Schaff’s translation so as to avoid any charge of Catholic translation bias. His introductory note is also a good read. One thing, Clement uses the LXX totally, although his version seems to be an older style of Greek than the later LXX versions that have come down to us, at least that is Scaff’s position.

Chapter 44 is titled “Apostolic Ministry...and priestly office” and the word presbyter is used here. In addition, Schaff uses the “fulfill the duties” where in his note he states the literal meaning is “makes the offerings” which is where the Catholic translations use the term “have offered its sacrifices”

In Chapter 40, which you cited, Saint Clement used the ancient Liturgical worship of Israel as a prefigurement for the model Church as Pope Benedict notes, Clement states “She was assembled by “the one Spirit of grace poured out on us” which breaths on the various members of the Body of Christ, where all are united without divisions. Yet, Pope Benedict in a commentary on this Letter does point out that Clement makes a distinction between laity and the hierarchy but that this distinction is not in opposition, but is an organic connection to the one Body, but with different functions. As Benedict notes, Clement is indicating that the Church is not a place of confusion and anarchy where one can do what ones likes all the time: each one in this organism with a articulated structure, exercises his ministry in accordance with the vocation he has received.

Clements entire purpose for writing to the Church of Corinth in the East was to correct the schism the replacement of legitimately ordained priests and deacon who were put there to celebrate the Liturgy and pastor the Church at Corinth, etc.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.ii.ii.xliv.html


154 posted on 05/22/2014 8:14:07 PM PDT by CTrent1564
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