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To: CTrent1564

I agree that we might as well agree to disagree, since neither is likely to sway the other to his side. We use a very different approach, but that difference is a critical part of a thread on how we should view church fathers, and how they viewed themselves.

“I am well aware of his position on Jews, there was certainly some anti-Jewish polemics in some of the Fathers writings, I am well aware of that. That was not the question at hand...”

But in a sense, it IS the question at hand. On the one side, you have Paul the Apostle writing:

“I am speaking the truth in Christ—I am not lying; my conscience bears me witness in the Holy Spirit— 2 that I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, my kinsmen according to the flesh. 4 They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises. 5 To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.”

That is hardly in accord with anti-Jewish feeling and belief. Thus, if a Church Father - and to his credit, John Chrysostem strikes me as above average in sincerity and honesty - strikes a directly contradictory approach, then it calls into question both who the ‘fathers’ thought they were, and how much we should trust them to reflect the views of the Apostles - all of which were Jewish.

Obviously, the Catholic Church respects the church fathers. Equally obvious, most Baptists do not. There isn’t going to be much common ground between us, nor will there ever.


108 posted on 05/20/2014 4:16:06 PM PDT by Mr Rogers (I sooooo miss America!)
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To: Mr Rogers

Mr Rogers:

Lets not go overboard and criticize someone 1,600 years ago and point out there sins. His sin, i.e Anti jewish rhetoric, is know to us because some of his writings were polemics against the Jews. Some of the NT writings can sometimes, if not interpreted carefully have hints of anti Jewish rhetoric. The statement for “fear of the Jews” which appears in the Gospels needs to be qualified as fear of certain Jews, not the entire Jewish people.

And you are correct, we have differences in how we understand the development and defining of Doctrine. I accept totally the Creeds of the early Church and the Dogmatic Doctrinal statements in the Councils of Nicea, Constantinople, Ephesus and Chalcedon. Most Baptist, like yourself, do not.


109 posted on 05/20/2014 7:13:57 PM PDT by CTrent1564
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