The Papacy in Scripture – More Than Matthew 16

Tim Staples' Blog ^ | March 26, 2014 | Tim Staples

[Elsie]

You are not a 1 John 4 Christian if you put the Mormon book above the Bible.

Oh?

Why is that?

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1 John 4   (ESV)

1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. ² By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, ³ and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already. ⁴ Little children, you are from God and have overcome them, for he who is in you is greater than he who is in the world. ⁵ They are from the world; therefore they speak from the world, and the world listens to them. ⁶ We are from God. Whoever knows God listens to us; whoever is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the Spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

⁷ Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God. ⁸ Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love. ⁹ In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him. ¹⁰ In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. ¹¹ Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. ¹² No one has ever seen God; if we love one another, God abides in us and his love is perfected in us.

¹³ By this we know that we abide in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit. ¹⁴ And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. ¹⁵ Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. ¹⁶ So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. ¹⁷ By this is love perfected with us, so that we may have confidence for the day of judgment, because as he is so also are we in this world. ¹⁸ There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love. ¹⁹ We love because he first loved us. ²⁰ If anyone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot^[a] love God whom he has not seen. ²¹ And this commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother.

[boatbums]

Thank you once again for your well researched and sourced comments. We should keep them on speed dial for the next time this SAME topic is repeated on the RF. What I also know is that most of the already-catholicized will stuff their collective fingers in their ears, cover their collective eyeballs and skip OVER everything as if doing so means it isn't there and they won't have to deal with it.

One of the reasons some do this is because they MUST remain convinced they are in the "right" church, jumping the right hoops, doing the right rituals and praying the right prayers in order to somehow have hope that maybe, just maybe, they might make it to heaven when all is said and done. They cannot countenance that worldview being rocked even IF everything you have said is verifiable and true - they won't take that chance. And for some others, this one point - the Papacy in Scripture (which we can see well enough is fantasized as being there) - gives them the assurance that therefore EVERYTHING else this "Church" says must also be the truth. IF they can convince an undecided that the Roman Catholic Church IS the one Jesus set up headed by Peter, they can get their foot jambed in the door enough to slip in all the other developed, contrived, invented and perverted doctrines thought up over the many years since then and make acceptance of them mandatory.

The thought that comforts me through all this is knowing that God is a rewarder of all those who diligently seek HIM. Those looking for a religion or church they can boast about or which helps them to feel good about themselves and what they do, will probably not be the ones doing the seeking of the truth. That road to heaven is narrow - and few there be that find it.

[boatbums]

And that is the problem. Without a living Magisterium protected by the Holy Spirit a Protestant cannot have an objective faith but only a private opinion. Nor will a simple appeal to Scripture work. The various Protestant denominations testify to the numerous conflicting opinions among them as to the meaning of Scripture. Likewise, the constant charge made against Catholics that our teachings go against Scripture will not stand since what we are arguing about are different interpretations of Scripture, as this thread highlights.

An honest Protestant must acknowledge that Catholics do indeed derive their teaching from Scripture and sincerely believe that Catholicism offers a better interpretation of it. A Protestant is free to say that this interpretation is false and that he does not share it, but he can only say that this is a matter of his opinion, not that it is a rejection of Scripture itself. It always amazes me that Protestants will rail against Catholic claims of infallibility for the Church while expressing their own private opinions as if they were the infallible interpretation of Scripture.

The Roman Catholic Church even having a "living Magesterium" has certainly not protected it from various schisms, factions, disagreements and battles over its history. The Franciscans disagreed with the Dominicans, they didn't agree with the Augustinians and none of them liked the Jesuits. You have liberal, conservative, traditionalist and sedevacanist factions even more so today. Look at any number of polls to see that you are far from having a majority of Catholics that agree on or accept everything your magesterium HAS decreed.

Like always, Christians MUST appeal to Scripture - and so did the early fathers of the church - as it stands alone as the OBJECTIVE and inerrant, divinely-inspired word of God. If THAT isn't authoritative, what else is better? On the major tenets of the Christian faith - those doctrines clearly taught in Scripture and spelled out in the earliest creeds - ARE what makes a person a Christian. It is far from a mere label. I know it is a common theme of FRoman Catholics to assert that they represent the church that is the same as the one begun by Christ, but an honest Catholic must acknowledge that their church cannot be shown to teach today what was used as a measuring rod for the rule of faith way back then - it's called:

"Quod semper, quod ubique, quod ab omnibus" literally means, "what always, what everywhere, what by everyone." This is the standard test for authentic catholic (i.e. universal) Christian doctrine, as proposed by the Church Father, St. Vincent of Lerins (died c. 445). It means that a Christian teaching is to be accepted as authentic and universal doctrine if it passes the test as what has been held by believers "always, everywhere, and by everyone."http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_translation_of_quod_semper_quod_ubique_quod_abomnibus

You cannot be honest and insist this remains true in the RCC today. God's word is clear on the main doctrines that determine authentic Christianity. The early creeds were based upon it because they recognized no higher authority. It means what it says and hiding behind a "that's your own private interpretation of Scripture" is a ruse. The Apostles knew that, the Early Church Fathers knew that and faithful Christians today STILL know that.

[Elsie]

Do the writings of the "church fathers" trump or impugn the Holy Word of G-d ?

I depends, I suppose, upon just WHICH writings you want to use...

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As regards the oft-quoted Mt. 16:18, note the bishops promise in the profession of faith of Vatican 1,

 

Likewise I accept Sacred Scripture according to that sense which Holy mother Church held and holds, since it is her right to judge of the true sense and interpretation of the holy scriptures; nor will I ever receive and interpret them except according to the unanimous consent of the fathers. — http://mb-soft.com/believe/txs/firstvc.htm

Yet as the Dominican cardinal and Catholic theologian Yves Congar O.P. states,

Unanimous patristic consent as a reliable locus theologicus is classical in Catholic theology; it has often been declared such by the magisterium and its value in scriptural interpretation has been especially stressed. Application of the principle is difficult, at least at a certain level. In regard to individual texts of Scripture total patristic consensus is rare...One example: the interpretation of Peter’s confession in Matthew 16:16-18. Except at Rome, this passage was not applied by the Fathers to the papal primacy; they worked out an exegesis at the level of their own ecclesiological thought, more anthropological and spiritual than juridical. — Yves M.-J. Congar, O.P., p. 71

And Catholic archbishop Peter Richard Kenrick (1806-1896), while yet seeking to support Peter as the rock, stated that,

“If we are bound to follow the majority of the fathers in this thing, then we are bound to hold for certain that by the rock should be understood the faith professed by Peter, not Peter professing the faith.” — Speech of archbishop Kenkick, p. 109; An inside view of the vatican council, edited by Leonard Woolsey Bacon.

Your own CCC allows the interpretation that, “On the rock of this faith confessed by St Peter, Christ build his Church,” (pt. 1, sec. 2, cp. 2, para. 424), for some of the ancients (for what their opinion is worth) provided for this or other interpretations.

• Ambrosiaster [who elsewhere upholds Peter as being the chief apostle to whom the Lord had entrusted the care of the Church, but not superior to Paul as an apostle except in time], Eph. 2:20:

Wherefore the Lord says to Peter: 'Upon this rock I shall build my Church,' that is, upon this confession of the catholic faith I shall establish the faithful in life. — Ambrosiaster, Commentaries on Galatians—Philemon, Eph. 2:20; Gerald L. Bray, p. 42

• Augustine, sermon:

"Christ, you see, built his Church not on a man but on Peter's confession. What is Peter's confession? 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.' There's the rock for you, there's the foundation, there's where the Church has been built, which the gates of the underworld cannot conquer. — John Rotelle, O.S.A., Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine , © 1993 New City Press, Sermons, Vol III/6, Sermon 229P.1, p. 327

Upon this rock, said the Lord, I will build my Church. Upon this confession, upon this that you said, 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God,' I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not conquer her (Mt. 16:18). — John Rotelle, Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine (New Rochelle: New City, 1993) Sermons, Volume III/7, Sermon 236A.3, p. 48.

• Augustine, sermon:

For petra (rock) is not derived from Peter, but Peter from petra; just as Christ is not called so from the Christian, but the Christian from Christ. For on this very account the Lord said, 'On this rock will I build my Church,' because Peter had said, 'Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.' On this rock, therefore, He said, which thou hast confessed, I will build my Church. For the Rock (Petra) was Christ; and on this foundation was Peter himself built. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Christ Jesus. The Church, therefore, which is founded in Christ received from Him the keys of the kingdom of heaven in the person of Peter, that is to say, the power of binding and loosing sins. For what the Church is essentially in Christ, such representatively is Peter in the rock (petra); and in this representation Christ is to be understood as the Rock, Peter as the Church. — Augustine Tractate CXXIV; Philip Schaff, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers: First Series, Volume VII Tractate CXXIV (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf107.iii.cxxv.html)

• Augustine, sermon:

And Peter, one speaking for the rest of them, one for all, said, You are the Christ, the Son of the living God (Mt 16:15-16)...And I tell you: you are Peter; because I am the rock, you are Rocky, Peter-I mean, rock doesn't come from Rocky, but Rocky from rock, just as Christ doesn't come from Christian, but Christian from Christ; and upon this rock I will build my Church (Mt 16:17-18); not upon Peter, or Rocky, which is what you are, but upon the rock which you have confessed. I will build my Church though; I will build you, because in this answer of yours you represent the Church. — John Rotelle, O.S.A. Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine (New Rochelle: New City Press, 1993), Sermons, Volume III/7, Sermon 270.2, p. 289

• Augustine, sermon:

Peter had already said to him, 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.' He had already heard, 'Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona, because flesh and blood did not reveal it to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I tell you, that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of the underworld shall not conquer her' (Mt 16:16-18)...Christ himself was the rock, while Peter, Rocky, was only named from the rock. That's why the rock rose again, to make Peter solid and strong; because Peter would have perished, if the rock hadn't lived. — John Rotelle, Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine (New Rochelle: New City, 1993) Sermons, Volume III/7, Sermon 244.1, p. 95

• Augustine, sermon:

...because on this rock, he said, I will build my Church, and the gates of the underworld shall not overcome it (Mt. 16:18). Now the rock was Christ (1 Cor. 10:4). Was it Paul that was crucified for you? Hold on to these texts, love these texts, repeat them in a fraternal and peaceful manner. — John Rotelle, Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine (New Rochelle: New City Press, 1995), Sermons, Volume III/10, Sermon 358.5, p. 193

• Augustine, Psalm LXI:

Let us call to mind the Gospel: 'Upon this Rock I will build My Church.' Therefore She crieth from the ends of the earth, whom He hath willed to build upon a Rock. But in order that the Church might be builded upon the Rock, who was made the Rock? Hear Paul saying: 'But the Rock was Christ.' On Him therefore builded we have been. — Philip Schaff, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1956), Volume VIII, Saint Augustin, Exposition on the Book of Psalms, Psalm LXI.3, p. 249. (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf108.ii.LXI.html)

• Augustine, in “Retractions,”

In a passage in this book, I said about the Apostle Peter: 'On him as on a rock the Church was built.'...But I know that very frequently at a later time, I so explained what the Lord said: 'Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church,' that it be understood as built upon Him whom Peter confessed saying: 'Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God,' and so Peter, called after this rock, represented the person of the Church which is built upon this rock, and has received 'the keys of the kingdom of heaven.' For, 'Thou art Peter' and not 'Thou art the rock' was said to him. But 'the rock was Christ,' in confessing whom, as also the whole Church confesses, Simon was called Peter. But let the reader decide which of these two opinions is the more probable. — The Fathers of the Church (Washington D.C., Catholic University, 1968), Saint Augustine, The Retractations Chapter 20.1:.

• Basil of Seleucia, Oratio 25:

'You are Christ, Son of the living God.'...Now Christ called this confession a rock, and he named the one who confessed it 'Peter,' perceiving the appellation which was suitable to the author of this confession. For this is the solemn rock of religion, this the basis of salvation, this the wall of faith and the foundation of truth: 'For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Christ Jesus.' To whom be glory and power forever. — Oratio XXV.4, M.P.G., Vol. 85, Col. 296-297.

• Bede, Matthaei Evangelium Expositio, 3:

You are Peter and on this rock from which you have taken your name, that is, on myself, I will build my Church, upon that perfection of faith which you confessed I will build my Church by whose society of confession should anyone deviate although in himself he seems to do great things he does not belong to the building of my Church...Metaphorically it is said to him on this rock, that is, the Saviour which you confessed, the Church is to be built, who granted participation to the faithful confessor of his name. — 80Homily 23, M.P.L., Vol. 94, Col. 260. Cited by Karlfried Froehlich, Formen, Footnote #204, p. 156 [unable to verify by me].

• Cassiodorus, Psalm 45.5:

'It will not be moved' is said about the Church to which alone that promise has been given: 'You are Peter and upon this rock I shall build my Church and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it.' For the Church cannot be moved because it is known to have been founded on that most solid rock, namely, Christ the Lord. — Expositions in the Psalms, Volume 1; Volume 51, Psalm 45.5, p. 455

• Chrysostom (John) [who affirmed Peter was a rock, but here not the rock in Mt. 16:18]:

Therefore He added this, 'And I say unto thee, Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church; that is, on the faith of his confession. — Chrysostom, Homilies on the Gospel of Saint Matthew, Homily LIIl; Philip Schaff, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf110.iii.LII.html)

• Cyril of Alexandria:

When [Peter] wisely and blamelessly confessed his faith to Jesus saying, 'You are Christ, Son of the living God,' Jesus said to divine Peter: 'You are Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church.' Now by the word 'rock', Jesus indicated, I think, the immoveable faith of the disciple.”. — Cyril Commentary on Isaiah 4.2.

• Origen, Commentary on the Gospel of Matthew (Book XII):

“For a rock is every disciple of Christ of whom those drank who drank of the spiritual rock which followed them, 1 Corinthians 10:4 and upon every such rock is built every word of the church, and the polity in accordance with it; for in each of the perfect, who have the combination of words and deeds and thoughts which fill up the blessedness, is the church built by God.'

“For all bear the surname ‘rock’ who are the imitators of Christ, that is, of the spiritual rock which followed those who are being saved, that they may drink from it the spiritual draught. But these bear the surname of rock just as Christ does. But also as members of Christ deriving their surname from Him they are called Christians, and from the rock, Peters.” — Commentary on the Gospel of Matthew (Book XII), sect. 10,11 ( http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/101612.htm)

• Hilary of Potier, On the Trinity (Book II): Thus our one immovable foundation, our one blissful rock of faith, is the confession from Peter's mouth, Thou art the Son of the living God. On it we can base an answer to every objection with which perverted ingenuity or embittered treachery may assail the truth."-- (Hilary of Potier, On the Trinity (Book II), para 23; Philip Schaff, editor, The Nicene & Post Nicene Fathers Series 2, Vol 9.

[Elsie]

Then again, given the numerous posts by post Vatican II Catholics, I have often wondered whether they know what the Catholic Church really teaches.

Ya just can't find a good catechism teacher these days...

[Elsie]

If you want to hold the Catholic Church’s leader’s to higher standards then Jesus knew no man could attain, then please apply this same expectations to all other denominations.

Let's use the classic, "LOOK over THERE!" to avoid dealing with Catholic problems of bad popes, bad practices and bad theology.

[Elsie]

Now THAT is clear...What this Staples claims is all fog...

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NIV 1 Corinthians 4:6
Now, brothers, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, "Do not go beyond what is written." Then you will not take pride in one man over against another.

NIV 2 Corinthians 1:13-14
13. For we do not write you anything you cannot read or understand. And I hope that, 14. as you have understood us in part, you will come to understand fully that you can boast of us just as we will boast of you in the day of the Lord Jesus.

[narses]

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[Elsie]

He was talking directly to him as Rock to build on because the conversation was directed at Peter your view in my humble opinion is wrong.

Your 'opinion' goes directly AGAINST the SCRIPTURE that I posted in #73 as well as #76.

Would you care to explain why your opinion is right?

[narses]

[Elsie]

1302 It is evident from its celebration that the effect of the sacrament of Confirmation is the special outpouring of the Holy Spirit as once granted to the apostles on the day of Pentecost.

Classic example of circular logic.

[Elsie]

An honest Protestant must acknowledge that Catholics do indeed derive their teaching from Scripture and sincerely believe that Catholicism offers a better interpretation of it.

An honest Catholic would ADD...

... must acknowledge that Catholics do indeed derive their teaching from Scripture and a whole lot of OTHER writings.

[Elsie]

We should keep them on speed dial for the next time this SAME topic is repeated on the RF.

TOMORROW???

[Elsie]

I forgot to call your attention to #124

[Elsie]

You are supposed to lead with your cereal picture...

Do you have it cued up and ready to go?

[Elsie]

I’m always in a quandary as how to deal with narses...

Proverbs 26:4 or Proverbs 26:5

[metmom]

Without a living Magisterium protected by the Holy Spirit a Protestant cannot have an objective faith but only a private opinion.

Nonsense If the magisterium were led by the Holy Spirit, it would not need a majority vote. Matter of fact, it would be unanimous ALL THE TIME.

The Holy Spirit indwells believers.

Additionally, that does not exclude Catholics from having their own personal interpretation of Scripture. Their choice, however, is to adopt the one of the Catholic church, so in the end, EVERYONE makes an individual decision of what to believe, which interpretation they have, whether they arrive at it themselves, of just take the whole prepackaged deal.

[Al Hitan]

Nonsense If the magisterium were led by the Holy Spirit, it would not need a majority vote. Matter of fact, it would be unanimous ALL THE TIME.

Nonsense. Who are you to dictate how the Holy Spirit must act?

[CynicalBear]

>>An honest Protestant must acknowledge that Catholics do indeed derive their teaching from Scripture<<

Then please show where in scripture the teaching of the assumption of Mary is.

[Petrosius]

Deriving teaching from Scripture does mean solely from Scripture. The Assumption of Mary does indeed come from Sacred Tradition rather than Scripture but the majority of disputes between Catholics and Protestants revolve around the interpretation of Scripture. And while the Protestants may disagree with these Catholic interpretations they should, if they are honest, acknowledge that they are sincerely held by Catholics and that Catholics do not teach anything that they believe goes against Scripture. Catholics accept the authority of Scripture as just as binding as Protestants.