Posted on 04/16/2014 5:37:55 AM PDT by Salvation
You like the Reformation. I got that. And I don't. I show its lies through the Holy Scripture that the Church gave me. If you want to dispute with me, you need to do better than telling me what you think.
Indeed. We are not Jews.
"The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life."
That His words are spirit and life does not mean that His words are metaphorical.
calm down.
Error leads people to hell and must be spoken against.
If someone keeps repeating that then it must be stated strongly so that no one else falls for it, believes it and goes to hell.
Jesus Himself said that He did not come into the world to condemn and you said that He condemns people.
So who is telling the truth and am I going to believe?
You get one guess and it isn’t you.
Then it’s not the Passover. Men don’t go changing God’s laws.
It doesn’t end well.
Then you expect to live forever, right? Your body will never die.
If we’re talking literal eating and drinking, then the entire passage needs to be taken literally. That means you will literally never die.
Do you know what the term "ad hominen" means? Your very NEXT words are a prime example! You condemn ALL of the "Protestant" faith and seem to forget that the majority of the tenets are the same as what Catholicism teaches. There are several different kinds of "ad hominem" attacks people use when arguing a point. Let's see if you are guilty. From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem, they are:
Abusive ad hominem usually involves attacking the traits of an opponent as a means to invalidate their arguments. Equating someone's character with the soundness of their argument is a logical fallacy. Mere verbal abuse in the absence of an argument, however, is not ad hominem nor any kind of logical fallacy.
Ad hominem abuse is not to be confused with slander or libel, which employ falsehoods and are not necessarily leveled to undermine otherwise sound stands with character attacks.
Circumstantial
Ad hominem circumstantial points out that someone is in circumstances such that they are disposed to take a particular position. Ad hominem circumstantial constitutes an attack on the bias of a source. This is fallacious because a disposition to make a certain argument does not make the argument false; this overlaps with the genetic fallacy (an argument that a claim is incorrect due to its source).
The circumstantial fallacy applies only where the source taking a position is only making a logical argument from premises that are generally accepted. Where the source seeks to convince an audience of the truth of a premise by a claim of authority or by personal observation, observation of their circumstances may reduce the evidentiary weight of the claims, sometimes to zero.
Tu quoque
Ad hominem tu quoque (literally: "You also") refers to a claim that the source making the argument has spoken or acted in a way inconsistent with the argument. In particular, if Source A criticizes the actions of Source B, a tu quoque response is that Source A has acted in the same way. This argument is fallacious because it does not disprove the argument; if the premise is true then Source A may be a hypocrite, but this does not make the statement less credible from a logical perspective. Indeed, Source A may be in a position to provide personal testimony to support the argument.
Guilt by association
Guilt by association can sometimes also be a type of ad hominem fallacy if the argument attacks a source because of the similarity between the views of someone making an argument and other proponents of the argument.
I think there is ample evidence that you have resorted to ALL of these kinds of ad hominem attacks. Do try to improve your tactics.
You like the Reformation. I got that. And I don't. I show its lies through the Holy Scripture that the Church gave me. If you want to dispute with me, you need to do better than telling me what you think.
There is a reason why people hate the Reformation and I think it has more to do with their source of authority being challenged than it does with the doctrines defended by the reformers themselves. I, as have others, given you much more Scriptural evidence than you have provided. The snippets you use to support the doctrines the Catholic Church gave you match the snippets they used to try to do the same. Had they actually been able to defend the rule of faith that was "always, everywhere and by all" held by faithful Christians, they could have successfully quashed the Reformation's charges that they hadn't. The Catholic magesterium could not and that is why God's hand was working through these faithful men and women and He continues to honor the faith once delivered unto the saints - saving all those who come to Him by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, to the glory of God alone.
No. You cannot explain John 6, 1 Cor. 11 and the Last Supper in unison. It does not matter how much irrelevant scripture you post.
You also cannot explain James 2: "Not by faith alone are ye saved".
Or "the Holy Ghost hath placed you bishops, to rule the church of God" (Acts 20:28).
All that produces dissertations that avoid the short point in these passages. The very need to explain the Holy Scripture away is the defect of Protestant faith.
It means what it says:
He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day.
As you see from the Holy Scripture, I can have the hope of having an everlasting life because Christ will raise me after I die. Read the scripture every once in a while and you will know all you need to know about salvation.
I am saved and going to heaven and the Catholic church is not interfering with it.
Indeed. The so-called 'Scriptural evidence" on the other side were those of repetitious insistence of a literal hermeneutic for the Lord’s supper, in allegiance to Rome, despite the fact that no one ever obtained spiritual life by eating, and that the Holy Spirit often used figurative language in John for Christ Jesus, as well as for eating/drinking elsewhere in Scripture, including men being called bread for Israel, and drinking water plainly being called the blood of men.
And thus that RCs are inconsistent in rejecting these as literal while insisting the language which would have kosher jews drinking human blood to gain spiritual and eternal life, contrary to Scripture, is literal. But that instead this is a Christianized form of endocannibalism.
And also being shown that Jn. 6:53,54 is an absolute imperative, yet if literal then it means that one must believe and receive the Eucharist to have spiritual and eternal, but which contradicts modern Rome which affirms Prots are born again in baptism and have the Spirit as children of God, which thus must be denied in order to be consistent with the literal position on Jn. 6. Thus rendering those who do deny this to being part of a RC sect, at least on this issue.
And being also shown that 1Cor. 11:13-34 in context "not discerning the body" referred to the church as that Body, that of not effectually recognizing others as members while they were sppsd to be showing the Lord's death by the considerate manner in which they partook of the communal meal.
And that even the RC commentary affirms this, "reproducing his [Christ's] action in the proper spirit," "perceiving the imperative to unity that follows from the fact that Jesus gives himself to all and requires us to repeat his sacrifice in the same spirit."
But RCs have great liberty to compel Scripture to support Rome as they see fit, as Scripture is not their supreme authority, nor is the weight of its substantiation the basis for the veracity of RC teaching, but instead it is the cultic premise of the assured infallibility of Rome, which she has infallibly declared herself as unique possessing. And which presumption has infected some of her devotees, and trying to reason with such out of the Scriptures can be like that of with hardened Jews.
And when they opposed themselves, and blasphemed, he shook his raiment, and said unto them, Your blood be upon your own heads; I am clean: from henceforth I will go unto the Gentiles. (Acts 18:6)
Take the advice of of the Religion Moderator.
The demeanor of the poster says more about his own confession than the post says about yours. When he is being rude or mean it drives people away from his confession and towards yours....If the other guy is throwing spitwads at you on an “open” thread it probably means he has run out of ammunition. Take it as a backhanded compliment. You won, walk away.
— http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2025842/posts
Thanks for the reminder.
Yes...we HAVE. That you refuse to accept the Scriptural evidence does not mean we haven't posted them. The John 6 as well as the I Corinthians 11 passages have been explained repeatedly and it lines up with the rest of the Word of God much better than the narrow, adulterated and developed one Roman Catholicism has devised. That the Apostles taught that view cannot be proven, and I think y'all know it. That you term "irrelevant scripture" the passages posted to dispute Rome's view only enhances this conclusion. You don't help your cause a bit.
You also cannot explain James 2: "Not by faith alone are ye saved".
Wrong, that has been done MANY times. James is addressing believers and the role good works has in demonstrating a sincere faith. Why do you ignore Ephesians 2 that says, "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith — and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast."? Or in Titus 3, that says, "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us"? Or II Timothy which says, "He has saved us and called us to a holy life--not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time."? You pull out a passage without its context and expect a whole doctrine can be defined by it. I thought you understood that Biblical hermeneutics doesn't work like that.
Or "the Holy Ghost hath placed you bishops, to rule the church of God" (Acts 20:28).
Typical Roman Catholic interpretation. Anything to get that power and keep it! Here is what that verse really says, "Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood." Pastors, elders and overseers have a responsibility to God to make sure they are good shepherds as Jesus is. They are to feed the sheep with sound doctrine and examples of holy living. God said in Jeremiah 3:15, "Then I will give you shepherds after my own heart, who will lead you with knowledge and understanding." Something Catholicism has NOT been able to ensure no matter how boastful they have been about being THE church Jesus established.
All that produces dissertations that avoid the short point in these passages. The very need to explain the Holy Scripture away is the defect of Protestant faith.
What you call "dissertations that avoid the short point" is actually comical seeing as your church has reams and reams of canons, treatises, encyclicals and catechisms that attempt to FORCE the clear meaning of the verses into philosophical pretzels when it doesn't line up with what popes and magesteriums in the past have devised to explain away God's sacred Scriptures. Jesus condemned the Pharisees who invented "traditions" that contradicted and nullified God's word. Your church has done the same with many of its traditions. That will be how God's people can know truth from error - measured by God's revealed word is our guidepost and rule of faith. NO ONE can be His stand-in. The "short points" in the RCC catechism often try to imply Scripture backs them up, but too often it is nothing more than cherry-picked snippets that ignore the over all truth God has given to us. That is a dangerous thing to do. I'd strongly advise against it.
I love it when a long speech has every paragraph beginning with “And” and there are “Rome” and “RC” sprinkled in. Looks plenty scientific that way.
On the subject matter, — complete nonsense, refuted previously by simply sticking to the text of the Bible. Read the Bible every once in a while...
Oh, you always "explain". When it is not there, obviously there must be some explanation. You supply these. None was coherent about the three indicated passages together, because together they do not allow for a non-Catholic explanation.
The exercise for you is not to "explain", -- you cannot do that, -- but to read. Every once in a while.
James is addressing believers and the role good works
Yeah, yeah. Fantasize all you want. Al I need to do is to read "not by faith alone are ye saved" and no matter what else we can find in the Bible about faith, it becomes clear that whoever defends their fundamental doctrine of salvation by faith alone is a charlatan who wants to re-write the Bible.
Here is what that verse really says
Replace the Catholic word "bishop" with non-existent English word "overseer" and say "shepherd" instead of "rule" and what do you get? Still a proof text for hierarchical Church with God-appointed clergy, not a club of Bible explainers.. You cannot destroy the Bible. It is a Catholic Book and it describes One Holy Apostolic Catholic Church.
If you "explain" so much, find me a similar quote where the Scripture is said to be the rule of faith for the Church. Good luck.
your church has reams and reams of canons
So? The issue is that when the Bible says "this is my body" or "not by faith alone are ye saved" or "bishops rule the Church" there is nothing you can write to deny the plain meaning.
Then I guess by your standards Paul was a charlatan.
John 1:10-13 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 3:14-18 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life. “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
John 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?”
Galatians 2:15-21 We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.
But if, in our endeavor to be justified in Christ, we too were found to be sinners, is Christ then a servant of sin? Certainly not! For if I rebuild what I tore down, I prove myself to be a transgressor. For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.
Galatians 3:1-29 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith— just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?
Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.” But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.” Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.
To give a human example, brothers: even with a man-made covenant, no one annuls it or adds to it once it has been ratified. Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void. For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.
Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary. Now an intermediary implies more than one, but God is one.
Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law. But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.
Ephesians 2:1-10And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
2 Corinthians 5:17-21 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
John 1:11-13 He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
Acts 16:27-31 When the jailer woke and saw that the prison doors were open, he drew his sword and was about to kill himself, supposing that the prisoners had escaped. But Paul cried with a loud voice, “Do not harm yourself, for we are all here.” And the jailer called for lights and rushed in, and trembling with fear he fell down before Paul and Silas. Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”
Romans 3:20-30 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it—the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.
Romans 4:1-25 What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:
“Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”
Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? For we say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness. How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised. He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness would be counted to them as well, and to make him the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.
For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith. For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void. For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression.
That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, as it is written, “I have made you the father of many nations”—in the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist. In hope he believed against hope, that he should become the father of many nations, as he had been told, “So shall your offspring be.”
He did not weaken in faith when he considered his own body, which was as good as dead (since he was about a hundred years old), or when he considered the barrenness of Sarah's womb. No unbelief made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God, fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised. That is why his faith was “counted to him as righteousness.” But the words “it was counted to him” were not written for his sake alone, but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification.
Romans 5:1-2 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
Romans 10:9-13 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
Who knew all you were really looking for was "sound bite" religion??? You can't even match up yours with actual Scripture!
"this is my body" We know that Jesus said MUCH more than "this is my body" and we also know that the RCC didn't get around to actually spelling out their developed doctrine over those words until well over a THOUSAND years after the last of the Apostles all died. Strike one.
"not by faith alone are ye saved" You cannot find THAT passage anywhere in Scripture. Strike two.
"bishops rule the Church" Again, that exact phrase isn't in Scripture. Not even the Douay-Rheims. Instead the verse in the DR says, "Take heed to yourselves, and to the whole flock, wherein the Holy Ghost hath placed you bishops, to rule the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood." Unbelievable as it seems NO other Bible version states it that way. Like I said, the RCC HAS to maintain her hold on power. God insists that bishops or overseers and elders shepherd and feed God's flock. Strike three. Yer out!
Once again, your little exercise is one of futility and your trite and juvenile digs to read Scripture only shows your own failure to do so. You can go ahead and imagine, if you want, that your good works and deeds, your own righteousness earns and merits heaven for you. I choose to believe God and trust that it is in Christ alone through FAITH alone that God's grace alone is what carries me to heaven. He said "all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags" - go ahead and tell God He HAS to accept them. Talk about fantasy!
Did St. Paul write “you are saved by faith alone” anywhere in these quotes? Or does St. Paul express proper Catholic doctrine?
It is a good idea to know something about the matter which you intend to discuss. Otherwise you reinforce my opinion that Protestants figured out how they can ignore half the Bible by profusely citing another half, which does not say anything in support of their theological fantasies.
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