Posted on 04/05/2014 11:10:17 AM PDT by PhilipFreneau
Is Russia Mentioned in Ezekiel?
A careful and literal reading of Ezekiel 38 and 39 reveal that modern-day interpretations that allude to Russia are misleading, at best. Oddly, most of those interpretations seem to come from those who claim to be "literalists.
As an example of the kind of misleading statements Christians have to contend with is this statement by Jennifer Rast in an article listed on the Contender Ministries website
"As we read the headlines in the newspapers of today, and witness the conflict in the Middle East, it's not hard to imagine that this invasion prophesied over 2600 years ago, could be fulfilled in our lifetime."
The key word is "imagine." What Jennifer didn't say is that it is easy to imagine the scriptures to mean anything, but generally difficult to prove.
Ms. Rast goes on to list some of the modern-day theories. This is #4:
"4. Russian Theory: The Hebrew word 'rosh' in verse 3 is identified with Russia, 'Tubal' with Tiblisi or Tobolsk and 'Meshech' with Moscow, therefore Gog and Magog refers to Russia. This is one of the most commonly held views and is based on a different interpretation of the Hebrew word Rosh (used as a noun rather than adjective), similarities in the pronunciation of words, and the Greek translation of Rosh referring to a tribe of people found in what is now Russia."
Let's examine the word "rosh'" in the Old Testament. Strong's Concordance lists the word as:
{7218} ro'sh, roshe; from an unused root apparently meaning to shake; the head (as most easily shaken), whether literal or figurative (in many applications, of place, time, rank, itc.): — band, beginning, captain, chapiter, chief(-est place, man, things), company, end, X every (man), excellent, first, forefront, ((be-)) head, height, (on) high(-est part, (priest)), X lead, X poor, principal, ruler, sum, top.
From all appearances, the correct translation for rosh would be: the chief, head, ruler, or similar adjective. For direct usage, the Septuagint provides the following:
"And the word of the Lord came to me, saying, Son of man, set thy face against Gog, and the land of Magog, Rhos, prince of Mesoch and Thobel, and prophesy against him, and say to him, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against thee, Rhos prince of Mesoch and Thobel:" (Eze 38:1-3 SEP)
In that translation the word "rosh" (Rhos) is used ambiguously the first time; but is used as, what appears to be, an adjective in the second part. Now compare with the King James Version:
"And the word of the Lord came unto me, saying, Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him, And say, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:" (Eze 38:1-3 KJV)
Therefore, it is safe to conclude that the Hebrew word "ro'sh" means "the chief" in this instance; Gog would be the chief prince of Magog; and the King James Version is translated correctly.
The Strong number 7218 for the Hebrew word "rosh" is used over 500 times in the Old Testament, and the usage in the verses I examined was to define a "leader" (e.g., the chief baker;) as one's actual head (e.g., upon my head;) or as the highest point (as in, the top of a mountain.)
Rast said common interpretations of Meshech and Tubal are Moscow and Tiblisi (or Tobolsk) respectively. Let's examine an earlier Ezekiel reference to those two cities:
"And say unto Tyrus, O thou that art situate at the entry of the sea, which art a merchant of the people for many isles, Thus saith the Lord God; O Tyrus, thou hast said, I am of perfect beauty … Tarshish was thy merchant by reason of the multitude of all kind of riches; with silver, iron, tin, and lead, they traded in thy fairs. Javan, Tubal, and Meshech, they were thy merchants: they traded the persons of men and vessels of brass in thy market. They of the house of Togarmah traded in thy fairs with horses and horsemen and mules. " (Eze 27:3, 12-14 KJV)
Tubal and Meshech are listed as two of the many merchants of Tyre. Guess who else was listed as a merchant?
"Judah, and the land of Israel, they were thy merchants: they traded in thy market wheat of Minnith, and Pannag, and honey, and oil, and balm." (Eze 27:17 KJV)
It does not appear that Meshech and Tubal are modern-day Russian cities.
Other claimed scriptural references for a modern interpretation are these which use the word "north:"
"And I will turn thee back, and put hooks into thy jaws, and I will bring thee forth, and all thine army, horses and horsemen, all of them clothed with all sorts of armour, even a great company with bucklers and shields, all of them handling swords: Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya with them; all of them with shield and helmet: Gomer, and all his bands; the house of Togarmah of the north quarters, and all his bands: and many people with thee ... Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say unto Gog, Thus saith the Lord God; In that day when my people of Israel dwelleth safely, shalt thou not know it? And thou shalt come from thy place out of the north parts, thou, and many people with thee, all of them riding upon horses, a great company, and a mighty army:" (Eze 38:4-6, 14-15 KJV)
It should be noted that multiple invasions of Israel came from the north; for example, by Syria, Babylon, and Rome.
The land of Togarmah is mentioned in Ezekiel 27:14 as a merchant of Tyre for horses, horsemen and mules. Note also that in Ezekiel 38:4-6, the soldiers are not only riding horses; but are clothed with armour and carrying shields and swords. That sounds like an ancient army.
In verse 16 the Lord explains that He is bringing Gog against Israel:
"And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes. " (Eze 38:16 KJV)
So, who is this mysterious Gog? Adam Clarke, in his commentary, stated it was Antiochus IV, king of Syria, who invaded Israel around 168 BC and defiled the temple. Antiochus was defeated during the Maccabean Revolt which, incidentally, marked the beginning of the feast of Hanukkah.
Some key fulfilments mentioned by Clarke include:
"And I will call for a sword against him throughout all my mountains, saith the Lord God: every man's sword shall be against his brother." (Eze 38:16-18 KJV)
Clark: "Meaning Judas Maccabeus, who defeated [Antiochus'] army under Lysias, making a horrible carnage."
"So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the Lord, the Holy One in Israel." (Eze 39:7 KJV)
Clarke: "This defeat of Gog is to be in Israel: and it was there according to this prophecy, that the immense army of Antiochus was so completely defeated. Ands I will not let them pollute my holy name any more— See on 1 Macc. 1:11, etc., how Antiochus had profaned the temple, insulted Jehovah and his worship, etc. God permitted that as a scourge to his disobedient people; but now the scourger shall be scourged, and he shall pollute the sanctuary no more."
Note that Daniel 11 & 12 also prophesied of Antiochus' profanation of the temple. Read Clarke's entire commentary on Ezekiel 37-39, for more information.
Another commentary that mentions Antiochus is Matthew Henry Volume IV. Henry's comments for Ezekiel 38:5-6 include this statement:
"Antiochus had an army made up of all the nations here named, and many others."
I am of the opinion that Gog is not a modern figure, but an ancient king or ruler: most likely Antiochus IV.
Philip
I would agree there are many unexplained/uninterpreted old testament prophecies. But Jesus himself made it unclear that there are any "yet-to-be-fulfilled" prophecies:
"And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled." (Luke 21:20-22 KJV)
>>>God is not yet done with the Jewish people or Israel.<<<
Paul didn't think so:
"For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:" (Rom 9:3 KJV)
The apostles went way out of their way trying to beat it into our thick skulls that God is no respecter of persons:
"God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;" (Acts 17:24-26 KJV)
"Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:" (Acts 10:34 KJV)
"For there is no respect of persons with God." (Rom 2:11 KJV)
"And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him." (Eph 6:9 KJV)
"But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons." (Col 3:25 KJV)
"My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons." (Jam 2:1 KJV)
"But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors." (Jam 2:9 KJV)
"And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:" (1 Pet 1:17 KJV)
"For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him." (Rom 10:12 KJV)
"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." (Gal 3:28-29 KJV)
"That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ." (Eph 2:12-13 KJV)
"Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all." (Col 3:11 KJV)
There are more . . .
Philip
That is the Law!
"Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets." (Mat 7:12 KJV)
"Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law." (Rom 13:10 KJV)
"For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." (Gal 5:14 KJV)
"If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors." (Jam 2:8-9 KJV)
And it fulfills the Commandments:
"This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you." (John 15:12 KJV)
"Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God." (1 Jn 4:7 KJV)
And it was known from old:
"Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the Lord." (Lev 19:18 KJV)
Philip
Interestingly, the campaign of Gog and Magog is held by modern Orthodox Jews to be a future event. If it had in reality been fulfilled in the second century one would think that such a view would be recognized by the Jewish rabbis from that time until our present. Instead, the details of this battle have not yet been fulfilled in the past but await a future fulfillment.
The army that fights against Israel:
“Their flesh shall dissolve while they stand on their feet,
Their eyes shall dissolve in their sockets,
And their tongues shall dissolve in their mouths.”
Sounds like a microwave pulse from a nuke. The eyeballs and tongue would burst into flames in the skull because of their relatively high water content.
>>>It may be that Israel will not have peace until after the tribulation...<<<
As mentioned in another reply, it appears (mostly from historical silence) that Israel had peace from the days of Darius until the invasion of Antiochus IV, a period of over 300 years.
Philip
>>>Interestingly, the campaign of Gog and Magog is held by modern Orthodox Jews to be a future event. If it had in reality been fulfilled in the second century one would think that such a view would be recognized by the Jewish rabbis from that time until our present. Instead, the details of this battle have not yet been fulfilled in the past but await a future fulfillment.<<<
They have been wrong about many things: in general their obsession with the antichristian religion of Judaism, and in particular their insistence on a literal interpretation of figurative prophecy.
Philip
I am saying the way you guys are trying to pick apart a text that has been translated at least four times before it got to a form you can understand is stupid.
What understanding does it matter whether Russia is in the text. What good is that going to do anyone? Are you going to change your behavior one little bit based on your “understanding?”
The bible is full of wisdom. It is full of history. It is a wonderfully blessed collection of books.
But this navel gazing will get you nowhere. If you are in Isreal, there is a pretty good chance you will be nuked. Does it much matter who is nuking you?
The time and discussion on this would be better spent playing with your kids, raking the lawn, loving your wife, or washing your car.
Live the life within the precepts of the bible. You will be fine.
I am not suggesting that reading and understanding the bible is not a valid use of time. I AM suggesting that spending time trying to plug in 2014 to 3000 year old prophecies IS a waste of time.
So what difference does picking apart Ezekiel make?
What will you walk away understanding. If His hand is moving things, you don’t have to worry. If YOU are living your life understanding Jesus’ law...you could spend your time more productively.
That’s all I was saying.
We have the Hebrew from Strong's, and we have the Septuagint. Of course, we also have The Preacher:
"The words of the wise are as goads, and as nails fastened by the masters of assemblies, which are given from one shepherd. And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh. Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man." (Ecc 12:11-13 KJV)
>>>But this navel gazing will get you nowhere. If you are in Isreal, there is a pretty good chance you will be nuked. Does it much matter who is nuking you?<<<
All is vanity.
>>>The time and discussion on this would be better spent playing with your kids, raking the lawn, loving your wife, or washing your car.<<<
If you are so busy, why are you here?
>>>I am not suggesting that reading and understanding the bible is not a valid use of time.<<<
LOL! You really had me fooled! LOL!
>>> I AM suggesting that spending time trying to plug in 2014 to 3000 year old prophecies IS a waste of time.<<<
Join the club of those who have time to waste.
Philip
Most rabbis and Christian commentators see the Valley of Dry Bones as the Holocaust, and the bones coming together, forming bodies and becoming alive, the rebirth of the State of Israel.
What are the names of the enemy lands where Jews are held captive today? New York City? LOL!
The Jews are not held captive today, but they were taken captive from Israel and can be found today all over the world. I think part of Eze 39:28 is that all Jews will return to Israel. Look at the Aliyah numbers from Europe, the US... it is happening!
more than 300 years of peace: peace that began during the reign of Darius
Like you wrote to another poster, this "peace" is based on historical silence. Lack of evidence is not evidence of something not happening.
I don't recall the villages having walls.
Archeology shows that at that time all villages were walled or did not exist for long!
Israel will not have real peace until Jesus returns.
>>>So what difference does picking apart Ezekiel make?<<<
Like the Blues Brothers, we all think we are on a Mission From God!
>>>What will you walk away understanding. If His hand is moving things, you don’t have to worry. If YOU are living your life understanding Jesus’ law...you could spend your time more productively.<<<
Frankly, I enjoy studying and debating the scriptures (debating? well, most of the time.) I am too old and worn-out to do anything else -:)
Phillip
Are you saying that the God who is mighty enough to inspire the writers of the different books in the Bible, so that they write exactly what He wants, is not mighty enough to make sure that those books are properly translated? Granted, there are some pretty bad "versions", like the Message, or the Queen James... but overall, the Word of God has been protected. If you read a word-by- word translation you won't go wrong.
I don't care what a rabbi thinks; but can you list those Christian commentators?
>>>The Jews are not held captive today, but they were taken captive from Israel and can be found today all over the world. I think part of Eze 39:28 is that all Jews will return to Israel. Look at the Aliyah numbers from Europe, the US... it is happening! <<<
What happens to those who decide not to return? Are they dragged kicking and screaming to Israel to fulfill the prophecy? How does that work?
>>>Like you wrote to another poster, this "peace" is based on historical silence. Lack of evidence is not evidence of something not happening.<<<
If there was a war during that period, Josephus would have written about it.
>>>Archeology shows that at that time all villages were walled or did not exist for long!<<<
Throughout all Israel? Do you have any scripture to support your opinion? Also, archeology is not an exact science.
Philip
>>>How does that relate to the Gog and Magog of Revelation 20.<<<
It doesn’t. Nothing in Ezekiel relates to Revelation 20.
Philip
Yes..that is exactly what I am saying.
If you are so busy..why are you here?
In all honesty..and not to be crude, I read FR when I am sitting on the can. Or when my wife is watching “her show”, which I find more tedious than poking folks on the thread!
All in fun. No offense intended.
>>>In all honesty..and not to be crude, I read FR when I am sitting on the can.<<<
Wow! Do you ever have it made! A John with a computer station! That sure beats the Sears Roebuck catalog.
Philip
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.