Pay No Attention to That Man Behind the Curtain! Catholic History and the Emerald City Protocol

reformation21 ^ | April 2012 | Carl Trueman

[Hacksaw]

Need reinforcement that badly?

[Alex Murphy]

“What we have seen for the past three years is a steady, incremental increase [in the number of people coming into the Church at Easter],” said Sara Blauvelt, director for catechesis of the Archdiocese of Washington. Blauvelt said that she finds it “particularly exciting” that there has been “a significant increase in the number of catechumens.”

Any increase in the number of trinitarian Christians, Catholic or otherwise, is a good thing in my opinion. Let's hope that we see some genuine changes of character as well, as evidenced by an increase in conservative voting.

[LurkingSince'98]

Agreed.

Atheists

Hindus

Buddhists

Muslims

and anyone fallen away from Christ in any religion

All fare game and not considered poaching.

No Harm No Foul.

AMDG

[Alex Murphy]

Agreed.

Atheists

Hindus

Buddhists

Muslims

and anyone fallen away from Christ in any religion

All fare game and not considered poaching.

No Harm No Foul.

IMO all faithful Christians (be they Protestant or Catholic) will become conservative voters, as their thought processes grow more biblical-minded and consistent, "taking every thought captive to obey Christ" (2 Corinthians 10:5). I don't think you'd disagree with me on that. Where we might disagree is over whether you disagree with Catholic social theory and how it's played out historically at the American ballot box. If you intend to deck me for disagreeing with the American bishops' positions on universal health care and illegal immigration, you might want to rethink what website you're posting on.

[Iscool]

Then post an article about the dangers of, say, Islam instead. Then we could all get on board and agree for a change...

We do...And we post about those religious people who like to have their pictures taken kissing s muzlim Koran...Unity, ya know...

[LurkingSince'98]

Also agreed.

However, it is our house and just as I would never presume to enter under your roof and tell you and Mrs Murphy the how and why of cleaning up that attic with bats in the belfry and the old gay uncle that you let live rent free (there it is again, by the same token we don’t need an outside to tell us some of the old bats in the belfry need to be let free.

You really have no idea the struggle that is going on right now for the soul of the Catholic Church. It is being fought in some way in every parish and every Diocese, and almost every faithful Catholic is in some way involved.

We do not discuss it openly especially in this forum, however, it is a battle in every sense of the word.

What you read about and what comes out in the papers is an amazingly narrow snapshot of the totality of the battle.

Regarding the ‘social justice’, ‘liberal voting Catholics’ and CINOs (Catholics In Name Only like Pelosi, Durbin and others) they are being slowly put surely dealt with.

You think the Vatican can just say something is so and it is changed overnight - not so. There is something very big happening as San Diego Catholic that has been found by the Vatican to be morally bankrupt, but it is still ongoing.

This is a fight that faithful Catholics will win because they have not defected, not rolled over and played dead and are not giving up on - no matter how bad it has gotten.

So long term outlook is very good, short term partly cloudy with a chance of meatballs.

BTW, every Catholic from all over could tell you tales of the fight that is going on in their parish and dioceses - but they wont. They are doggedly and determined to see it to the right end.

AMDG

[Iscool]

If you did it to my face the next thing you would know is that you would be picking yourself up off the ground.

That's how the pharisees reacted to the apostle Paul...And for the same reason...

You insult my faith, my parents faith and my children’s faith and you do it with impunity since you are hidden.

You come on a public forum with who knows how many visitors and push your form of religion to the public...I for one believe your religion left on its own has, is and will send countless numbers of people to hell...

As long as I am given the opportunity I will counter your religion with the truth of the bible...In obscurity or face to face...

[Iscool]

When I see your posts I think of Miss Maudie from To Kill a Mockingbird when she told Scout that some people are too busy worrying about the next world that they haven’t learned to live in this one.

I haven't watched that movie in 40 years...I don't even remember a bird let alone Miss Maudie...But Miss Maudie's got it right...

[daniel1212]

"Except for a just and reasonable cause."

Which is a clause that can easily be used to justify anything. But looking at history we see much stricter prohibitions.

We furthermore forbid any lay person to engage in dispute, either private or public, concerning the Catholic Faith. Whosoever shall act contrary to this decree, let him be bound in the fetters of excommunication. — Pope Alexander IV (1254-1261) in “Sextus Decretalium”, Lib. V, c. ii:Catholic Encyclopedia, http://oce.catholic.com/index.php?title=Religious_Discussions

Commenting on this, the 1914 Catholic Encyclopedia states, “This law, like all penal laws, must be very narrowly construed. The terms Catholic Faith and dispute have a technical signification. The former term refers to questions purely theological; the latter to disputations more or less formal, and engrossing the attention of the public....But when there is a question of dogmatic or moral theology, every intelligent layman will concede the propriety of leaving the exposition and defense of it to the clergy. - www.newadvent.org/cathen/05034a.htm

But the clergy are not free to engage in public disputes on religion without due authorization. In the Collectanea S. Cong. de Prop. Fide" (p. 102, n. 294) we find the following decree, issued 8 March, 1625: "The Sacred Congregation has ordered that public discussions shall not be held with heretics, because for the most part, either owing to their loquacity or audacity or to the applause of the audience, error prevails and the truth is crushed. But should it happen that such a discussion is unavoidable, notice must first be given to the S. Congregation, which, after weighing the circumstances of time and persons, will prescribe in detail what is to be done. The Sacred Congregation enforced this decree with such vigour, that the custom of holding public disputes with heretics wellnigh fell into desuetude.

That this legislation is still in force appears from the letter addressed to the bishops of Italy by Cardinal Rampolla in the name of the Cong. for Ecclesiastical Affairs (27 Jan., 1902) in which it is declared that discussions with Socialists are subject to the decrees of the Holy See regarding public disputes with heretics; and, in accordance with the decree of Propaganda, 7 Feb., 1645, such public disputations are not to be permitted unless there is hope of producing greater good and unless the conditions prescribed by theologians are fulfilled. The Holy See, it is added, considering that these discussions often produce no result at all or even result in harm, has frequently forbidden them and ordered ecclesiastical superiors to prevent them; where this cannot be done, care must be taken that the discussions are not held without the authorization of the Apostolic See; and that only those who are well qualified to secure the triumph of Christian truth shall take part therein. It is evident, then, that no Catholic priest is ever permitted to become the aggressor or to issue a challenge to such a debate.

“...the Church forbids the faithful to communicate with those unbelievers who have forsaken the faith they once received, either by corrupting the faith, as heretics, or by entirely renouncing the faith, as apostates, because the Church pronounces sentence of excommunication on both.” St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, Article 9, “Whether it is lawful to communicate with unbelievers?”; http://www.newadvent.org/summa/3010.htm

“On the other hand, there are unbelievers who at some time have accepted the faith, and professed it, such as heretics and all apostates: such should be submitted even to bodily compulsion, that they may fulfil what they have promised, and hold what they, at one time, received.” St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, Article 8. “Whether unbelievers ought to be compelled to the faith?”

Innocent’s Bull Ad Extirpanda prescribes that captured heretics, being "murderers of souls as well as robbers of God’s sacraments and of the Christian faith, . . . are to be coerced – as are thieves and bandits – into confessing their errors and accusing others, although one must stop short of danger to life or limb." — Bull Ad Extirpanda (Bullarium Romanorum Pontificum, vol. 3 [Turin: Franco, Fory & Dalmazzo, 1858], Lex 25, p. 556a.) The bull conceded to the State a portion of the property to be confiscated from convicted heretics. The State in return assumed the burden of carrying out the penalty, and was to be "admonished and induced and if necessary compelled by ecclesiastical censure" "to the best of their ability to exterminate in the territories subject to their jurisdiction all heretics pointed out by the Church... "— Bull Ad Extirpanda (Bullarium Romanorum Pontificum, vol. 3 [Turin: Franco, Fory & Dalmazzo, 1858], Lex 25, p. 556a. Canons of the Ecumenical Fourth Lateran Council, 1215, http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/lateran4.asp)

Is it permitted for Christians to be present at, or to take part in, conventions, gatherings, meetings, or societies of non-Catholics which aim to associate together under a single agreement everyone who, in any way, lays claim to the name of Christian? In the negative! - (Pope Pius XI, Mortalium Animos)

How does a Catholic sin against faith? A Catholic sins against Faith by Apostasy, heresy, indifferentism and by taking part in non-Catholic worship." (Catechism of the Council of Trent, and the Baltimore Catechism)

"If any ecclesiastic or layman shall go into the synagogue of the Jews or to the meeting houses of the heretics to join in prayer with them, let them be deposed and deprived of communion. If any Bishops or Priest or Deacon shall join in prayer with heretics, let him be suspended from Communion" - III Council of Constantinople.

Quinisext Ecumenical Council, Canon 64: It does not befit a layman to dispute or teach publicly, thus claiming for himself authority to teach, but he should yield to the order appointed by the Lord, and to open his ears to those who have received the grace to teach, and be taught by them divine things; for in one Church God has made "different members," according to the word of the Apostle... But if any one be found weakening [disobeying] the present canon, he is to be cut off for forty days. — http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3814.htm

But that was the past, and doing something or not doing something that would excommunicate a RC in one century can be sanctioned in another, and having lost her unscriptural ability to control media, Rome came to encourage Bible reading, while the "just and reasonable cause" clause that allows the RC faithful to write "for newspapers, magazines, or periodicals which are accustomed to attack openly the Catholic religion or good morals," is interpreted to sanction debate with "anti-Catholics," contrary to times past, though the wording does not go that far, but evidently has writing letters and stories in mind.

[daniel1212]

Actually, such remarks are in response to the incessant advertising and promotion of an elitist church, and reactionary RCs who cannot tolerant anything that impugns their image of it. With at least 200 articles a month by Catholics concerning their church, which includes some articles outright attacking Protestantism, that is going to draw some fire, but which RCs whine about.

There are far far less articles posted about Prots by Prots, and that proactively attack Catholicism.

[LurkingSince'98]

I am not interested in the least in what you think.

AMDG

[Gamecock]

Indeed.

The Papists would just like the FR Protestants to go away and turn the Religion Forum into their own little pagan sandbox.

[MamaB]

We already know that. Some people have closed minds. They are critical of others who have different beliefs but can not take anyone being critical of their beliefs. Kinda like liberals. Only God knows what is in someone’s heart. My daughter and I were discussing this attitude the other day when we went to Atlanta.

[MamaB]

What a Christian attitude!

[Karl Spooner]

[Tao Yin]

‘unsolicited advice’ is ignored....

Really? That's a weird thing to say. Only the arrogant ignore sound advice.

Regarding the church in Corinth, they continued to read the letter for many years. The letter spread to other churches. Ultimately, the letter was not considered divinely inspired and was not included in the canon.