Posted on 01/25/2014 6:51:38 AM PST by GonzoII
You’re Saul of Tarsus? You must be really old.....
bump
Jesus Christ tells us the authority we must follow:...Matthew 4:4 NKJV
But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.
Amen!If someone doesn’t accept that God is perfectly capable and willing to use His word as the compass for our life...and the authority of which He claims that it is... Then frankly people will gravitate to ‘any other source’ of information no matter who claims it or publishes it.
by “Early Church” you are referring to which of the different ones that were being established?
The only things in the Bible that really need removed are the word “Saint” before the names of the authors.
You know that how?
Perhaps you should look at where scholars put the NT books within time and space. Your “examples” of a timeline are woefully off.
Second, scholars debating authorship of Paul authoring 13 epistles has very little dispute. The only epistle there has been historical debate discussed is Hebrews. Their was never any debate among the KJV translators on the 27 book NT canon. There is no debate on the NT canon. Your NABRE and all Protestant Bibles have 27 NT books. I don’t know how you conclude otherwise. Go to biblegateway.com to compare.
You can go to the below link to brush up on the development of the NT canon with regards to authors, dates etc.
http://errantskeptics.org/DatingNT-ChronologicalOrder.htm
And please sir, if you want to debate about cannons (you keep adding the extra “n”) then you are conversing with a Field Artilleryman.
You really believe..”The Bible is a tool, created by the Catholic Church”.
Then you’re understanding of who God is could well be limited. He didn’t need catholics to see his word got to the people any more than he needed catholics to bring Jesus into the world.
Once his word was made known .....and the people knew the truth rather than the fairy tales and such given them...The Reformation came to get the train back on track.....at least for those who wanted to know the truth. Those who didn’t fell behind and incorporated and continued all the pagan rituals and actions which had come into the church.
When man won’t clean his house...God will raise up those who will.
Ok that was incoherent. From the Resurrection to almost the end of the 1st Century believers had both written Words and “bipedal” Gospel preachers and teachers. They wrote these things down as evidenced by what we see in circulation after the passing of the apostles.
Based on your other assertions, where do we find the Gospel message the early Christians responded to?
I keep hearing from Catholics that the early Christians were poor, stupid and illiterate. How so? Many spoke multiple languages, to include reading and writing. Those Bereans we are told searched the scriptures (Acts 17). It was not until later when sola ecclesia asserted itself where we see scripture reading discouraged and the laity become ignorant.
Why would the Catholic Church create a tool which, as you're claiming, contains known mistakes? Why not correct the mistakes, if you know what they are? Did the "Gates of Hell" manage to prevail against His written word?
Jesus never commanded a Bible. Not once.
And so the Catholic Church decided, in their infinite wisdom and creativity, to make up one for themselves (one filled with mistakes) that falsely claims otherwise - is that what you're asking us to believe?
And he who was seated on the throne said...“Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”
-- Revelation 21:5b
The original Hebrew and Greek documents were NOT written by Catholics. The Jews had long established which Old Testament books were scripture and Peter even identified Paul’s writings as scripture.
2 Peter 3:15b. As also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you, according to the wisdom given him, [16] as in all his letters, speaking concerning these matters, in which some things are hard to understand, which those who are untaught and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do also THE OTHER SCRIPTURES. [17] You then, beloved ones, being forewarned, watch lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being let away with the delusion of the lawless.
Those writers were all Jewish not Catholic.
Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.What is the scripture that preached to Abraham before the Bible was written?
If you actually read a bible, you'd know that is not true at all...It is completely false...
Joh_21:24 This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true.
Act 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
James doing the writing...
Act 18:27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:
brethren writing...
Rom 16:22 I Tertius, who wrote this epistle, salute you in the Lord.
1Co 7:1 Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman.
Corinthians writing...
2Pe_3:1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:
1Jn_2:12 I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake.
Jud_1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
2Co_1:13 For we write none other things unto you, than what ye read or acknowledge; and I trust ye shall acknowledge even to the end;
Eph_3:4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
Col_4:16 And when this epistle is read among you, cause that it be read also in the church of the Laodiceans; and that ye likewise read the epistle from Laodicea.
There was so much writing going on they must have had paper mills and pencil venders in most every town...PolyCarp had copies of the scriptures he was reading from every where he went...
When are you guys going to start teaching what the bible teaches???
Jesus commanded Moses and others to write to write...Jesus commanded John to write...
My position is that the Bible is a TOOL originally created by the Catholic Church.
There were no Catholics in the Old Testament...There weren't any Catholics when the New Testament was authored...
Constantly...
“And besides, you do notice, do you not, that various quotations from Jesus, which happened at the same time, are reported slightly differently depending on the Book of the Bible you read?”
Are you claiming that the scripture has errors? That is the only conclusion we can receive from such an argument, as you are not critiquing translations, but the authenticity of the Apostolic testimony, or, at least, the scripture in its original language. Either way, it is an attack on the holy scripture, which makes you an infidel.
“Jesus never commanded a Bible. Not once.”
Then why did Christ give the Apostles the power and authority to write scripture? They considered their own writings, and even the writings of their close associates, to be equal in infallibility with the books of Moses. It’s not like someone decided that what they wrote was scripture later. They believed that they were writing the inspired word of God:
2Pe_3:16 As also in all his [Paul’s] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
Peter here calls the epistles of Paul to all be scripture.
1Ti_5:18 For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.
In this case, Paul quotes the Gospel of Luke right alongside Moses. This is quoted also in Matthew, but the Greek follows the pattern of Luke. Compare:
Luk 10:7 And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: for the labourer is worthy of his hire. Go not from house to house.
So when Paul declared that “all scripture is given by inspiration of God,” he literally believed that the sentence he was writing was itself scripture, the very moment he wrote it.
2Ti 3:16-17 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: (17) That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
“And has any original Scribe, or Translator, or Printer EVER made a mistake in any Bible?”
If it’s good enough for this guy, it’s good enough for me!
Cyril of Jerusalem on Sola Scriptura:
“Have thou ever in your mind this seal, which for the present has been lightly touched in my discourse, by way of summary, but shall be stated, should the Lord permit, to the best of my power with the proof from the Scriptures. For concerning the divine and holy mysteries of the Faith, not even a casual statement must be delivered without the Holy Scriptures; nor must we be drawn aside by mere plausibility and artifices of speech. Even to me, who tell you these things, give not absolute credence, unless thou receive the proof of the things which I announce from the Divine Scriptures. For this salvation which we believe depends not on ingenious reasoning , but on demonstration of the Holy Scriptures.” (Cyril of Jerusalem, Cat. Lecture 4, Ch. 17)
Read the scripture quote you posted. The answer is there.
On the relation of the Scripture to the Church, St. Thomas wrote [this one I got from Joe Gallegos, and it appears later in Not By Scripture Alone] —
ST II-II, Question 5, Article 3
The formal object of faith is Primary Truth as manifested in Holy Scripture and in the teaching of the Church which proceeds from the Primary Truth. Hence, he who does not embrace the teaching of the Church as a divine and infallible law does not possess the habit of faith.
Now of course you might disagree with these assertions but at least we have what this great Doctor of the Church believed. St. Thomas is well-respected among certain Reformed theologians as R.C. Sproul and John Gerstner — See Thomas Aquinas : An Evangelical Appraisal by Norm Geisler (Baker Books, 1991). I also find it curious how Geisler tries to make it appear Aquinas believed in sola scriptura in his Roman Catholics and Evangelicals (Baker, 1995).
Certainly that is true, and in fact it is entirely possible to get to Heaven without knowledge that there is even a church, unless the Ethiopian eunuch was not saved till he joined one.
But the point it that the gospel by which one is saved was established upon Scriptural substantiation in word and in power, that being what the Lord Jesus est. His Truth claims on, as did the apostles, (Mt. 22:23-45; Lk. 24:27,44; Jn. 5:36,39; Acts 2:14-35; 4:33; 5:12; 15:6-21;17:2,11; 18:28; 28:23; Rm. 15:19; 2Cor. 12:12, etc.)
For as written, it became the transcendent standard for obedience and testing and establishing truth claims, as is is abundantly evidence d. And thus it was by Scriptures that they were supremely tested by literate noble seekers, as Acts 17:11 testifies
The Bible is a tool, created by the Catholic Church, to assist in the work of spreading the Good News, and to make Disciples of All Nations.
That also is quite amazing. Created the Bible. So the Catholic church is the same church as the NT church? And so the church began a project to write 73 books and put them in one book, or you mean it decided to create an assuredly authoritative compilation of Scriptures? Even if it took until after Luther died for Rome to provide her first indisputable complete canon, as dispute continued down thru the centuries right into Trent. . And yet even in the Catholic Church canons of Scripture are not identical.
And how could anyone have assurance of Truth and what Scripture was before there was a church in Rome?
Now its time to sleep.
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