Posted on 01/25/2014 6:51:38 AM PST by GonzoII
Instead of declaring victory perhaps look at the hermeneutic you use to interpret Matthew 16. Peter is not the focus but his confession given to him from the Father. Peter was the first to proclaim Jesus as Son of God and thus Messiah. THAT is the importance of the passage.
Why then the “key” to Peter if Peter is equal among the 12 in authority?
One only has to read Acts to see Peter exercise the keys three times along with other apostles. Pentecost, Samaria and Cornelius.
On another note, if the current Pope has binding and loosing authority why doesn’t he use it? Why is Pelosi and Biden still getting communion when they defy church doctrine?
My argument is that the Church indeed does have authority.
It is NOT my argument that such authority is always used wisely.
Ah, yes...Tradition...the ‘rock’ on which to build a Church?
I understand your point. However Jesus Christ tells us the authority we must follow:
Matthew 4:4 NKJV
But He answered and said, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’ ”
And many of those words of Jesus were NOT written down.
The Apostles watched Jesus and listened to him, and they adopted his habits to a point, which became tradition even if not written in Scripture.
I taught my kids to ride bicycles with no written material.
Just because I did not write it down does not mean it did not happen, or that I did not, likewise, learn from my Father.
OK, so what’s the source for all those words that Jesus spoke that were not written down?
How do you know they were HIS words?
How do you know that they were handed down faithfully, without corruption?
Please provide the sources for documentation and verification purposes.
The SAME can be said of EVERY WORD in the Bible.
EVERY
SINGLE
WORD
Faith requires, well, FAITH!
And remember when you say the Lord’s Prayer that Jesus did NOT say, “And Thine is the Kingdom the Power and the Glory for Ever”
Thank a CATHOLIC MONK, a Scribe, for those words. Catholics KNOW this and do not accept it as part of the original Prayer.
That didn’t answer the questions.
We have VERY LITTLE certainty that we have documented ALL of the most important things that Jesus said.
We have some confidence that MOST of what we think Jesus said was documented accurately, but there are obvious disagreements.
We have more than a few instances where Scripture WAS corrupted or changed and we know about it.
We do NOT know how many times Scripture was corrupted or changed and we do not know about it.
Written Scripture did not even exist in written form until at least 200 years after the death of the last Apostle. All early Christians were taught the Faith by Oral Tradition.
Then, when much of the Faith was reduced to writing (BY THE CATHOLIC CHURCH) it was all done by hand.
And then, it took a very long time until the Canon of the Bible was actually decided, and then Martin Luther tried to eliminate the Book of James and did eliminate several other Books, when he created the Protestant Bible.
We must trust Monks and Scribes to TRY and do a good job of hand copying written text for centuries, parchment and scrolls that did not last very long, and had to be copied again and again and again before the writings deteriorated completely.
How many errors to YOU make when posting online, where you can correct yourself rather quickly? How likely is it that the Scribes might have made a mistake or two every so often?
Faith
Faith is all we have.
We have LITTLE proof, in any scientific sense, that would give us 100% certainty that our translations were all accurate and that each time the documents were copied, they were copied correctly.
And again, thank a Catholic when you say the Lord's Prayer.
And remember that Catholics say it the correct way that Jesus intended.
So the kids did not get on Facebook or TWITTER and give an account of riding their bikes? Were there witnesses?
The fact we have scriptures presents evidence for examination.
Did Peter exercise said keys in Acts?
I do not in any way dismiss Scripture, I simply point out that Scripture is a work of human hands, inspired by God but still subject to human error and flaws.
And, again, the New Testament Books rarely if ever reference one another, and the Bible itself never gives it the SOLE authority over faith.
Tradition has its place, and in fact Tradition BROUGHT YOU the Bible.
If Scripture, which was written down and has been with us for 2,000+ years, is that inherently unreliable, then what on God’s green earth makes you think that *tradition* is any better?
Tradition informs our understanding of Scripture.
And Scripture is NOTHIHG other than the Oral Tradition, reduced to writing, some 200 to 300 years AFTER the death of the last Apostle.
That's not what Paul tells us.
2 Timothy 3:16-17 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.
Now..... Who should I believe?
Paul?
Or an anonymous internet poster?
Huh?
WHERE in your post does Paul EVER say that that the “word” was written down IMMEADIATELY after it was spoken by Jesus?
And besides, you do notice, do you not, that various quotations from Jesus, which happened at the same time, are reported slightly differently depending on the Book of the Bible you read?
Same with the 10 Commandments by the way, so it happens in all Books.
Lets be blunt, when you go to the Christian Book Store and buy a Bible, is GOD writing down every Word in the back room, while you are out front buying a copy?
NO!
And has any original Scribe, or Translator, or Printer EVER made a mistake in any Bible?
YES!
Your quote does nothing at all to support your position.
My position is that the Bible is a TOOL originally created by the Catholic Church.
Jesus never commanded a Bible. Not once.
And did Paul tell us what Books were Scripture, in his mind, and which Books were not?
THERE WAS NO BIBLE WHEN PAUL SPOKE THOSE WORDS!
I am Paul
“Now..... Who should I believe?
Paul?
Or an anonymous internet poster?”
You will have to eliminate or confirm “if ever reference each other” before going forward with such a bold assertion.
What is the unifying message of the NT books? Hint Luke 24.
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