[BlatherNaut]

Well, that is a remarkable statement for a Catholic.

To the contrary.

"We believe in the communion of all the faithful of Christ, those who are pilgrims on earth, the dead who are being purified, and the blessed in heaven, all together forming one Church; and we believe that in this communion, the merciful love of God and his saints is always [attentive] to our prayers" (CCC 962)

We don't pray to saints as if they are God. That would be ridiculous. We ask those already in Heaven to pray for us in the same way we ask our friends here on earth to pray for us. We are all one body in Christ.

this is not what the scriptures teaches nor is it what the early fathers believed.

What is the point of repeatedly posting conflicting quotes from early Church Fathers? Doctrinal development did not cease with their interpretations. By what standard does one decide that it should have? And if one relies on Sola Scriptura, why should their various writings be held as anything more than opinions?

What the "new" Catholic Church is teaching is the heresy Socinianism, denying the Atonement.

This is documented not only in the writings of the early fathers but also in the Nicene Creed and many other writings of the Church.

Are you aware that recitation of the Nicene Creed is included in the Mass?

The Mass:

The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice: "The victim is one and the same: the same now offers through the ministry of priests, who then offered himself on the cross; only the manner of offering is different." "And since in this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the Mass, the same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and is offered in an unbloody manner. . . this sacrifice is truly propitiatory." (CCC 1367)

But then, all of a sudden it became clear as to what was REALLY being talked about. Hey, Christ didn't have to die for our sins but He just redeemed mankind from their sins. The rest is up to them.

This sums up the Catholic belief: "For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God". Was St. Paul proclaiming "works-based salvation theory" here?

[CynicalBear]

>> We don't pray to saints as if they are God. That would be ridiculous. We ask those already in Heaven to pray for us in the same way we ask our friends here on earth to pray for us. We are all one body in Christ.<<

Why do Catholics try to use that line when there is so much evidence against it? One needs simply to go to [Prayers to Saints] to see that Catholics routinely ask their saints to do things for them rather than just ask them to “pray for them”. Here’s an example.

[THE PRAYER SAINT ANNE, BLESS MY FAMILY]

“My family is the heart of my life.
It is my little Church.
Saint Anne, guard the members of my family
against all physical and spiritual danger.

That by any definition is praying to that saint. To claim that Catholics don’t pray to saints is laughable given the evidence to the contrary.

[HarleyD]

We don't pray to saints as if they are God. That would be ridiculous.

I've never stated that you pray to saints as if they are God. I said you pray to saints.

Doctrinal development did not cease with their interpretations. By what standard does one decide that it should have?

Building on a existing foundation is one thing. Moving down the street is quite another. The standard is the scriptures. It is what we measure how close or far away we are to our understanding of God.

And if one relies on Sola Scriptura, why should their various writings be held as anything more than opinions?

Various writings help us to understand THE writings-God's writings. We can either accept or reject what is being told to us by others based upon the scriptures. That is the purpose of places like here, to learn what is true from what is false. The Bereans were more noble because they searched the scriptures to find out if what others had written or told them was correct. But it remains our personal duty to search those things out-not to be told and accept. We need to go back to our bibles and search these things out- not our Catholic tracts.

Are you aware that recitation of the Nicene Creed is included in the Mass?

That's very nice. It doesn't change the fact that the Catholic Church today does not believe in the atonement as a sacrifice for sin. That is why you have people here saying Muslims can be saved without the cross of Christ. All they have to do is live a life according to the beatitude. The Catholic Church has become a work based organization.

But I suppose there is a certain irony in what they espouse and what they teach and believe. Eventually they'll modify the Mass to catch up with their doctrinal standards. This is, after all, what doctrinal development is all about, isn't it?

This sums up the Catholic belief: "For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God". Was St. Paul proclaiming "works-based salvation theory" here?

Do you believe a Muslim can be saved by living according to the beatitudes? Please don't try to tell me that Paul believed that. I would recommend a more extensive review of the scriptures than one line.