Posted on 01/16/2014 8:57:56 AM PST by BlatherNaut
LOL, I did read the purpose of your post, correctly.
You don’t refuse a position by failing to produce evidence, and then snarking at the person who requested it. We’re through.
“Refute” You don’t refute and don’t compute.
Ummm.... OK :o)
Thanks for the snark, two posts of it, but it doesn’t change the facts.
There is a constant posting of claims of Catholic growth on these threads, including the mentioned chart, on threads where you are a full participant, but as usual, you start out portraying yourself as totally unaware of the routine and obvious.
I’m confused about this “Church tax”. Are members of a faith forced to pay a tax to that religion? There’s no way I would ever sign up with a government and be moniored as a member of a religion, even if a tax weren’t involved.
I don’t know the details in Austria, but in Germany if you are a baptized Catholic, Luthern or a few other denominations you get charged a tax right on your tax form unless your formally withdraw from the church. That money is sent right to the church.
If you haven't information to back up the initial assertion, that FReepers claim that "the whole [Catholic] church is now growing like crazy" it's probably a better use of your time to volley back and forth, fact-free, with somebody else.
To: Mrs. Don-o
FReepers have posted that the church is undergoing a renaissance - a rebuilding - that people are packing into services more than ever. That’s how I know this article must be false.
7 posted on 1/16/2014 9:40:40 AM by aMorePerfectUnion
Here is what the poster was saying, it is something we see a lot from a few of the Catholics here.
What we actually know, is that while the democrats import Catholics by the tens of millions, and white Americans leave the denomination by the millions, the Catholic denomination is not growing.
Importing Catholics and their families and future offspring, by the tens, and tens, of millions, all those pro-abortion, democrat voters.
Even your personal church is “crammed”, as you have posted, while others post versions of the same thing, depending on the thread.
To: Mrs. Don-o
MDO, You do understand that I was posting “tongue-in-cheek”...
39 posted on Thursday, January 16, 2014 6:47:03 PM by aMorePerfectUnion (Truth is hate to those who hate the Truth)
And if you'll scroll back to #10? An accurate picture.
The tongue and cheek part was my outrage that the article couldn’t possibly be true because we were assured otherwise - which I never believed.
There have been reports of how fast things are growing from individuals here in their neck of the woods, due to the new pope. The ecstasy over his appearance in Brazil and the number of youth that came out to see him has been used to support the galvanizing of the members.
I’m not personally rooting against the Roman church growing. Not at all. I’m thankful that I learned many important foundation truths through the Roman church.
But I see the Roman church shrinking dramatically. Just look at a country like Belgium, where the vast majority of members never attend. Or the shrinkage in Brazil over the past decade.
So, no, I never believed any reports that the overall Roman church was growing. I do believe individual parishes can grow, but that is balanced by those being closed.
Kindest regards
ampu
Huh? All this exchange and you made that leap?
I’m seriously thinking that you don’t read the threads at all.
There does seem to be a comprehension problem here. To stay on-topic: I don't think any Catholic FReepers claim that "the whole [Catholic] church is now growing like crazy", which was the original misstatement.
As has been much-discussed, Catholics have made up a fairly stable share of all people on Earth. In 1910, Catholics comprised about half (48%) of all Christians and 17% of the world’s total population, according to the World Christian Database. Now, ~100 years later, the Pew Research study found, Catholics still comprise about half (50%) of Christians worldwide and 16% of the total global population.
What has changed substantially over the past century is the geographic distribution of the world’s Catholics. There are far less Catholics --- far less of any Christian denomination, Catholic or Protestant --- in places like Belgium and Scandanavia, and throughout de-Christianized Europe, as I mentioned before. The real growth in Europe has been for Mormons and Muslims, and this is a real tragedy.
The oldest Catholic/Orthodox churches on earth, in Iraq, Syria, and Egypt, are being wiped out by Muslim attack, an incalculable tragedy and loss.
The big growth for Catholicism has been in Africa and Asia. And Orthodoxy seems to be growing again in Russia.
There are similar disparities in the U.S., with big losses in Rhode Island and New Jersey, big gains in Texas and Tennessee.
Like you, AMPU, I rejoice when the Gospel is preached, whether done by Protestants of Catholics, and people turn to Christ in faith and love. I mourn when a whole continent becomes a de-Christianized desert: the countries of formerly Catholic Christendom and the cradle of the Reformation.
There will be much more to suffer, I think. We need to pray for each other.
“Thanks for your response, AMPU!”
Back at ya!
“There does seem to be a comprehension problem here. To stay on-topic: I don’t think any Catholic FReepers claim that “the whole [Catholic] church is now growing like crazy”, which was the original misstatement.”
Actually, the *original* statement did not use the word “whole”. After you asked me to take names, I rephrased it as whole, which is my understanding of the forced optimism I originally referred to.
“As has been much-discussed, Catholics have made up a fairly stable share of all people on Earth. In 1910, Catholics comprised about half (48%) of all Christians and 17% of the world’s total population, according to the World Christian Database. Now, ~100 years later, the Pew Research study found, Catholics still comprise about half (50%) of Christians worldwide and 16% of the total global population.”
Actually, I think I will gently disagree here. The Roman Church counts every baptized Catholic (my understanding) - whether they attend a single service in a year. In Belgium, for example, I note that 75% of the population is counted as Catholic. 10% of Catholics are involved. How many are really Catholic? Realistically, if their baptism and identification is that meaningless, that 90% of Belgian Catholics don’t even show up - essentially ever - I doubt they are Catholic, or it tells me Catholicism there doesn’t mean anything. Sorry for the run on sentence, but I”m too tired to rewrite it.
That is one country that is primarily Catholic. I’m doubting that “half of Christians worldwide” statistic. I think if you look under the hood you may find out those numbers are inflated and don’t reflect boots on the ground reality of practicing catholics.
“What has changed substantially over the past century is the geographic distribution of the world’s Catholics.”
We agree here.
“The big growth for Catholicism has been in Africa and Asia. And Orthodoxy seems to be growing again in Russia.”
Agree - that is where the growth has been.
“big gains in Texas and Tennessee.”
I doubt these are people coming to faith. I suspect this is migration from Mexico.
“Like you, AMPU, I rejoice when the Gospel is preached, whether done by Protestants of Catholics, and people turn to Christ in faith and love. I mourn when a whole continent becomes a de-Christianized desert: the countries of formerly Catholic Christendom and the cradle of the Reformation.”
As usual, we have much to agree on in this regard.
“There will be much more to suffer, I think. We need to pray for each other.”
I’m all for Prayer. Affluence doesn’t seem to be good for faith.
Blessings to you FRiend.
Actually, as a few of us have pointed out, many posters make up claims of Catholic growth in America.
It does fascinate me that you support the importation of more Catholic voters for the democrats proabortion agenda, personally I detest what it is doing in America.
We need to pray that we can find a way to stop immigration, but I fear that the democrats have already imported enough voters to make that impossible.
It was you who said it, AMPU, and this is what you said:
"CANT POSSIBLY BE TRUE!!... FReepers have told me the whole church is now growing like crazy."
That's the statement I was responding too, with particular attention to the word "whole." Click the link!
"Actually, I think I will gently disagree here. The Roman Church counts every baptized Catholic (my understanding) - whether they attend a single service in a year."
That's a good point, because there are 4 main ways this counting can be done: (1) Baptismal records (2) Self-identification (3)Parish registrations (4) Butts-in-the-pews. And naturally, the 4 methods produce 4 quite different results.
The Pew Forum's survey methodology was telephone interviews with 35,000+ demographically representative adults, with subsequent weighting to correct for known demographic discrepancies -- how? The whole 4-page report explaining their methodology is here:
http://religions.pewforum.org/pdf/report-religious-landscape-study-appendix4.pdf
That's probably as good as it can get--- self-identification, rather than Baptisms or Parish Registrations--- understanding, of course, that nobody can look into the soul, but only Jesus Christ Our Lord.
In some ways, any church is analogous to a person: in some ways acting wisely, in other ways foolishly; by some measures progressing, by others regressing; in some ways vigorous, in other ways decrepit; in different places and times earning a wonderful A+ or a doleful F.
This same church --- any Christian ecclesial community --- is still progressing on her pilgrim way. In her heart is the indwelling Spirit, the Faith, Hope and Love of the Lord which is the very source of her life. And around her are wolves. Let's always pray for each other, AMPU!
I am opposed to illegal immigration, and in favor of strict enforcement to stop and reverse it. For that matter, I wish the Republican party agreed with me.
But if we Catholics --- including our bishops --- were better Catholics, we would be better citizens and voters. Our country and world would be significantly more healthy, if Catholics were significantly more Catholic.
“That’s the statement I was responding too, with particular attention to the word “whole.” Click the link!”
Yes, understood. It was my second statement.
Self identifying is a poor measurement, in my experience. It is asking the person which category they fit into, but they never attend or participate. Again, Belgium is a great example.
I would be very pleased to pray for you and vice versa.
http://www.firstthings.com/onthesquare/2013/04/protestant-perseverance-and-catholic-decline
You compare the Catholic vote, not with the protestant Christian vote, or the Evangelical vote, or the Southern baptist vote, but with the American vote at large.
Yes the Catholic denomination votes with the left, the gays, the atheists, the Muslims.
You clearly support the importation of thens of millions of more of those pro-abortion democrat voters, it is clear how you try to switch my post on immigration, to a “illegal” immigration.
We see this all the time, Catholics talk about abortion, but support importing pro-abortion voters for the democrat party.
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