Clear Trinitarian passages from Jesus, John, Matthew, Luke, Mark, Peter, Paul, and the writer of Hebrews: None of those are "clear" trinitarian passages. The fact that passages mention the father, the son and the holy spirit only proves that there is a father, son and holy spirit.
That doesn't make the bible fit into a creed that was created, defined and developed over 300 years after the death of Christ.
No matter how you slice it and dice it NOBODY in the bible, including Jesus Christ, beleived the holy spirit was a separate "person" that stood along the father and the son. The actual descriptions of the Godhead in heaven CLEARLY show that. Scripture after scripture shows this picture.
Here's some more:
Rom 1:7 To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Paul sends greeting from God. He does not include a person called the "holy spirit". There is no way Paul was a trinitarian.
1Co 1:3 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Again, it's inconceivable that if Paul were a "trinitarian" that he wouldn't include the holy spirit as part of his standard greeting.
2Co 1:2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Well of course Paul wasn't a trinitarian...it was IMPOSSIBLE since the creed wasn't developed until long after he was dead.
Gal 1:3 Grace to you and peace from God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ,
Do you understand what this means? Paul was not and could NOT have been a trinitarian.
Paul, personally taught, by Christ, didn't believe what you believe. Who is right? You or Paul?
Eph 1:2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
To be honest you MUST know and recognize that Paul was not a trinitarian. Your beliefs ARE in conflict with Paul's. Who is right?
Php 1:2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Book after book Paul never elevates the holy spirit to a place in the Godhead. He didn't believe it was a different, separate person.
Col 1:2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ who are in Colosse: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Poor, ignorant blasphemous Paul... :-)
1Th 1:1 Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Poor spiritually dead Paul. Do you think God ever forgave him for not understanding the trinity?
2Th 1:1 Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
I mean clearly Paul doesn't "get it". He's so disrespectful the 3rd person in the trinity. He never puts this "holy spirit" at the same level as the father and the son.
1Ti 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ, by the commandment of God our Savior and the Lord Jesus Christ, our hope,
1Ti 1:2 To Timothy, a true son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.
Amazingly enough that heretic Paul also teaches Timothy the same thing! Heretic!
2Ti 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,
2Ti 1:2 To Timothy, a beloved son: Grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.
Paul, the heretic, still keeps describing the Godhead and STILL purposely and deliberately omits the 3rd person in the Godhead. What is wrong with this idiot?
Tit 1:4 To Titus, a true son in our common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Savior.
Blasphemy!
Phm 1:3 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
It's abundantly clear that Paul did NOT elevate a person called the "holy spirit" to the level of the father and the son. In writing after writing he acknowledges the father and the son as being divine PEOPLE in which he sends greetings from. But he does NOT recognize the holy spirit as being as different person and so does NOT send greetings. And of course not....this belief did NOT formally exist until over 300 years after this.
You MUST believe that God did not "reveal" this to Paul or to anyone else in the bible. You MUST believe that they were not as spiritually "blessed" as the ones who made up this belief. You must belief your understanding is greater than Peter, Paul, Matthew, Luke and John.
Good luck with that.
None of those are "clear" trinitarian passages. The fact that passages mention the father, the son and the holy spirit only proves that there is a father, son and holy spirit. Well, you've got part of this down... (Now all you have to do is come to the conclusion that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is more united than, say, a man and wife...and you can make some great progress!)
No matter how you slice it and dice it NOBODY in the bible, including Jesus Christ, beleived the holy spirit was a separate "person" that stood along the father and the son.
(See John 14:16-17, 26 and John 16:13-15 at post #363 and let Jesus speak for Himself)
Paul sends greeting from God. He does not include a person called the "holy spirit". There is no way Paul was a trinitarian.
(I've already cited Paul's trinitarian blessing in 2 Cor. 13:14; and I already mentioned in post #238 that just because only the Father and Holy Spirit are mentioned in passages like 1 Cor. 3:16 and Acts 20:27-28...and others...it doesn't mean that God has to follow a neat formula every time He's mentioned!...that would be legalism...and let's see...you are UCG...which practices legalism...so I guess that all goes hand-in-hand!)
You cited 1 Thess. 1:1...just keep going:
1 Thess. 1:5: ...because our gospel came to you not simply with words but also with power, with the Holy Spirit and deep conviction. You know how we lived among you for your sake. [My note: if the Holy Spirit was merely impersonal "divine power," then it would have been quite redundant for Paul to have written, "with power, with the Holy Spirit"]
1 Thessalonians 1:6 You became imitators of us and of the Lord, for you welcomed the message in the midst of severe suffering with the joy given by the Holy Spirit.
It looks plainly like the Holy Spirit and the Lord Jesus is mentioned in v. 6; but no Father...oops! There goes your anti-Holy Spirit "formula"
You reference Romans 1:7, yet you skipped over Romans 1:4: and who through the Spirit of holiness was appointed the Son of God in power by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord.
You cited Col. 1:2, keep going to Col. 1:9: For this reason, since the day we heard about you, we have not stopped praying for you. We continually ask God to fill you with the knowledge of his will through all the wisdom and understanding that the Spirit gives
(Sorry, but impersonal forces aren't omniscient with wisdom and understanding...)
You cited Eph. 1:2, keep going to verses 13-17: And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit...I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. (vv. 13,17)
There ya go, another Trinity reference in v. 17...and like Col. 1:9, an impersonal force is not wise.
You mention Gal. 1; The Holy Spirit is referenced 14 times in Gal. 3, 4, 5, and 6!
You mentioned 2 Cor. 1:2, keep going to v. 22: set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
You mentioned 1 Cor. 1, by 1 Cor. 3:16, the Holy Spirit has been referenced eight times!
You cited 2 Tim 1...jump down to v. 14:
Guard the good deposit that was entrusted to you—guard it with the help of the Holy Spirit who lives in us. [If the Holy Spirit was some impersonal force, the proper word would be "which" -- not a "WHO"]
You cited 1 Tim. 1...If some neat "formula" was to be followed, then why is only Jesus & the Holy Spirit mentioned in 1 Tim. 3:16? Where's the Father?
You cited 2 Thess 1, and if the "Lord" spoken of in 2 Thess. 2:13 is Jesus, then all three are mentioned in this verse.
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Bottom line: ALL...The accusations DouglasKC is making versus the Holy Spirit are exactly the types of accusations people can make against the Son of God for not being more clearly elucidated in the Old Testament.
The facts are that just as the Messiah was clearly demonstrated in the Old Testament, the Holy Spirit is clearly demonstrated in the New Testament...and in fact, even more so because whereas ALL of the Old Testament references to the Messiah were of a future incarnation, MOST of the New Testament passages came post-incarnation of the Holy Spirit!
And by "incarnation" of the Holy Spirit, what do I mean?: Well, the FIRST arrival of incarnational Deity was the Son of God as the specific Body of Christ; the SECOND arrival of incarnational Deity was the Holy Spirit within the broad Body of Christ -- His Church (1 Cor. 3:16; 2 Cor. 6:16; 2 Cor. 3:8-18; etc.)
In both cases, this Divine One is a Sent One! (Jesus elaborates on the Holy Spirit as the "Sent One" in John 14:26; 15:26; and Scriptures exist about the Father sending the Messiah)
In both cases, the Son of God and the Holy Spirit come in humble servant form. "Ministry" literally means "service" -- and the Holy Spirit is identified as having a "ministry" (2 Cor. 3:8), much like the Messiah came in servant form (Isaiah 53).
Just as the Son of God came for many reasons, so does the Holy Spirit. One of those reasons the Son of God came was to reveal the Father; likewise, critiquing the Holy Spirit -- as DouglasKC does -- for not shining a spotlight on Himself would be like critiquing Jesus for not shining a spotlight on Himself.
Many times Jesus defers to NOT taking His own initiative, or focusing on His own glory:
Examples:
John 8:28: ...I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me.
John 8:54: Jesus replied, “If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me.
John 5:19, 30: Jesus gave them this answer: “Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does...By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.
{See also Jesus' references on the cross where He says, "if it be you will, let this cup pass from me...not my will, but thy will be done" (Matthew 26:36–46; Mark 14:32–42; Luke 22:39–46)}
The Son of God's focus was to reveal the Unified God:
* Believing Jesus is believing God (see John 12:44; John 14:1)
* Receiving Jesus is receiving God (see Mark 9:33)
* Seeing Jesus is seeing God (see John 12:45; John 14:9)
* Knowing Jesus was knowing God (see John 8:19, 24; John 14:7)
* Honoring Jesus is honoring God (see John 5:23)
* Hating Jesus is hating God (see John 15:23)
* He who denies the Son, will be denied before the Father (see Matthew 10:33)
* He who confesses the Son, is confessed before the Father (see Matthew 10:32)
* To have God is to have the doctrine of Christ (2 John v. 9)
* 3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. (Hebrews 1:3)
The Son of God clearly said He was giving direct (enfleshed) testimony of the Father:
John 5:31, 36: If I testify about myself, my testimony is not true...“I have testimony weightier than that of John. For the works that the Father has given me to finish—the very works that I am doing—testify that the Father has sent me.
So, just as the Son of God was an enfleshed Living Testimony of the Father, so, too, the Holy Spirit is an enfleshed (within the body of believers) Living Testimony of the Son (& Father).
John 15:26: “When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father—the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father—he will testify about me.
(See also 1 John 5:7-8)
The Holy Spirit will indeed at times testify about Himself -- just like at times the Son of God testified about Himself (see John 8:14; 10:25); but that's not His primary focus. His primary focus is to testify about the Son of God!
And anybody blaming the Holy Spirit for not shining a brighter spotlight upon Himself -- and keeping the focus on Jesus (& the Father) is playing the same games people play re: God not spelling out every little detail in the Old Testament re: the Messiah.
There's quite a bit in the Old Testament about the Messiah -- if people had their spiritual eyes opened; likewise, if people realize that there's in reality a "second incarnation" -- only this one involving the Holy Spirit indwelling the Body of Christ around the world, then they quickly lose their "formula" approach to interpreting both Testaments!!!
