The Holy Trinity: Sound Doctrine or a Man-Made Tradition?

ArticleSeen.com ^ | Aug-28-2011 | Steve-O

[restornu]

We all can read words but is when the Lord talks to you through the written word than you have received a witness. Once you experience that sweet taste you will never forget it.

What makes you think Cynical Bear, or I, haven’t experienced the Lord speaking to our hearts through His sacred Scriptures? What makes you think we haven’t tasted that sweetness of God’s word? What makes you think we haven’t received a witness - the Spirit bearing witness with our spirit that we are children of God? When two people read Scripture and come away with two completely contradictory meanings, which one is right and which one is in error?

If all you can rely upon is “feelings”, you are standing on shaky ground. In case you don’t know this, the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked.

Why else did God give us His word if not so that we could know truth from error and have a rule of faith which is authoritative and by which all claims of truth must be measured?

I will pray for your eyes to be opened to the truth of the gospel.

***

I am glad you wrote this I have read this many times and I am very puzzle who is teaching this method.

They are many believers who adhere to this style.

So could you please when did this type of believing began?

Thank you

It would be nice to have a discussion without trying to weed through all the spam

Now I don’t’ want to mislead you I find you approach very unorthodox

At present I am trying to do too many things at once I am you have non cyber things to attend too!

[restornu]

It always amazes me that those who hold some writings or interpretation of some men above scripture then tell us that we aren’t reading scripture correctly or listening to the Holy Spirit.

***

Well which is it the scriptures only and anything outside is suspect?

[Colofornian]

God is a spirit. and he is holy. so, does that make 2 holy spirits?

Let's let Jesus answer that, shall we?

Jesus:

16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you ANOTHER advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you...26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. (John 14:16-17, 26)

Here's more from Jesus:

13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.” (John 16:13-15)

You're not saying here that the Father is both the Sender and the Sendee here, are you?

[restornu]

What makes you think Cynical Bear, or I, haven’t experienced the Lord speaking to our hearts through His sacred Scriptures? What makes you think we haven’t tasted that sweetness of God’s word? What makes you think we haven’t received a witness - the Spirit bearing witness with our spirit that we are children of God?

***

Please it would be nice to hear your experience?

[Colofornian]

Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one

Response:

Yachid vs. Echad The most important verse Jews memorized in the Bible was Deut 6:4: "Hear, O Israel! Yahweh is our God, Yahweh is one [Echad]!" There are a few words in Hebrew that the Holy Spirit could have used a word the has one exclusive meaning: the numeric, solitary oneness of God ("yachid" or "bad"). Instead the Holy Spirit chose to use the Hebrew word, "echad" which is used most often as a unified one, and sometimes as numeric oneness. For example, when God said in Genesis 2:24 "the two shall become one [echad] flesh" it is the same word for "one" that was used in Deut 6:4.
Source: Trinity: Oneness in unity not in number: Yachid vs. Echad

Hence, just as husband and wife is 2-in-1..."Echad" the word for "one" in that verse (Gen. 2:24)...and Jesus cites it in Matthew 19...saying:

4 “Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’[a] 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’? 6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”

There ya go: Jesus cites Gen. 2:24 in Matt. 19:4-5...even using the "one flesh"...and then adds for emphasis in v. 6: "So they are NO LONGER TWO, but ONE...Therefore what God has joined together, let NO ONE SEPARATE."

What? Are you now claiming that a human couple is more "one" than God is with His Son or the Holy Spirit?

Or, are you going to insist that "Echad" doesn't mean diversity-within-Unity?

Just as Jesus told us NOT to regard a married couple any longer as two -- a basic math issue a primary school kid & most pre-schoolers can get down pat -- don't regard God as "two" (or more), either.

What God organically is -- ONE -- let no man separate!

[Uri’el-2012]

There is no such word as “church” in scripture. There were different assemblies of believers in different locations. Each assembly was autonomous and addressed individually both by the apostles and also addressed as individual assemblies in Revelation.

Where to start; you have been misled on many issues.

How does YHvH define "church" i.e.Ekklesia ?

Is it all those called out by YHvH ?

A study of the word "church", in the Koine Greek : Ekklesia.

Was the "church" started at the YHvH commanded
Feast day of Shavuot (pentecost) as some say ?

or

Did the "church" exist earlier ?

Using the LXX as a guide we see that the Ekklesia
is first used in Deuteronomy 4:10

NAsbU Deuteronomy 4:10 "Remember the day you stood before YHvH, your God
at Horeb, when YHvH said to me, 'Assemble the people to Me, that I may let
them hear My words so they may learn to fear Me all the days they live on
the earth, and that they may teach their children.'

Also see : Deu 4:10, Deu 9:10, Deu 18:16, Deu 23:3, Deu 23:4, Deu 23:9, Deu 31:30,
Jos 9:2, Jda 20.2, Jda 21:5, Jda 21:8, Jdg 20:2 Jdg 21:5, Jdg 21:8, 1 Sa 17:47,
1 Sa 19:20, 1 Ki 8:14, 1 Ki 8:22, 1 Ki 8:55, 1 Ki 8:65, 1 Ch 13:2, 1 Ch 13:4, 1 Ch 28:2,
1 Ch 28:8

What was the purpose of the Ekklesia(church) ?

Was it a temporal corporation to rule on earth ? No !

Was it to have a temporal head ? No !

It was a gathering of YHvH's chosen people to hear His Word ?

and learn to Fear YHvH all their days ?

And to teach their children the same ? Yes.

-------------

Ekklesia is from the Hebrew Qahal (kof, hey, lamed)

(kof => The HOLY ONE
hey => grace, breath of G-d
lamed => teaching and learning)

which is haQahal The assembly (hey, kop, hey, lamed)
In scripture it is always used to describe
those who have been assembled by YHvH.
It begins in Exodus 16:3 ( the bread from heaven )
and continues to Nehemiah 8:17 (living in Booths)

NAsbU Nehemiah 8:17
The entire assembly of those who had returned from
the captivity made booths and lived in them.
The sons of Israel had indeed not done so
from the days of Joshua(Yehoshua)
the son of Nun to that day.
And there was great rejoicing.

Did Yah'shua repudiate the Tanach
(or the pejorative term: "old testament")

Did Yah'shua celebrate His commanded feasts ?
Did Yah'shua say ignore what is in My WORD ?

As such, celebrating the birth, crucifixion, death and resurrection

If you were familiar with the WORD of G-d
they all occurred on YHvH commanded Feasts.
None occurred on Pagan feast days.

Do you believe that you have been called to
be grafted into the vine ?
See: Romans 11

Seek YHvH in His WORD.

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua

[CynicalBear]

>> A study of the word "church", in the Koine Greek : Ekklesia.<<

Oh please Uri. Anyone can do a little research to know that’s wrong. The word translated "church" in the English Bible is ekklesia. This word is the Greek words kaleo (to call), with the prefix ek (out). Thus, the word means "the called out ones." However, the English word "church" does not come from ekklesia but from the word kuriakon, which means "dedicated to the Lord." This word was commonly used to refer to a holy place or temple. The word church is a poor translation of the word ekklesia since it implies a sacred building, or temple. A more accurate translation would be "assembly" because the term ekklesia was used to refer to a group of people who had been called out to a meeting.

You aren’t one of those Hebrew roots people are you?

[CynicalBear]

Why do you ask me question when you don’t answer mine?

[restornu]

I have answered many of your questions I don’t recall any you have answered of mine.

I feel the reason we are having trouble communicating is the two different approaches.

When I was mainstream I do not remember this method you are using was employed and I have been the various Churches.

[CynicalBear]

>> When I was mainstream I do not remember this method you are using was employed and I have been the various Churches.<<

I don’t know what “mainstream” churches you went to but both boatbums and I as well as others have been using scripture as the rule of faith which is authoritative and by which all claims of truth must be measured. That is the only infallible source we have. All other writing or belief must be measured and judged by scripture.The writers of scripture were chosen by Jesus to write and inspired by the Holy Spirit.

What you believe is contrary to what scripture teaches. We have Jesus words telling us that the apostles were chosen by Him. You have no such thing in Smith. You only have his claim. Mormonism is no different that Islam in that regard. You have Smith, they have Mohammad. Both contradict scripture and their followers deny what the Holy Spirit had the authors of scripture write.

[Uri’el-2012]

I'm very sorry about your understanding the WORD.

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach

[restornu]

I don’t know what “mainstream” churches you went to but both boatbums and I as well as others have been using scripture as the rule of faith which is authoritative and by which all claims of truth must be measured. That is the only infallible source we have.

***

Mainstream is mainstream Reform, Presbyterian, Nazarene, Catholic etc

[CynicalBear]

Then you should have known that the Holy Spirit inspired scripture is our only source for truth. Not some nutcase making claims like Smith did. You either follow Smith or you follow the words of the Holy Spirit as they are written in scripture. You cannot do both.

[CynicalBear]

I’m sure that’s what you think. If you are into that Hebrew roots cult you need to leave it asap.

[Elsie]

She’s MORMON - that’s what they Do!

[Elsie]

I feel the reason we are having trouble communicating is the two different approaches.

Yeah.

Christians hang around.

Mormons post and run.

[redleghunter]

In your opinion Matthew was the only NT book written in Hebrew? The remainder in Greek?

Thanks

[Elsie]

Mainstream is mainstream Reform, Presbyterian, Nazarene, Catholic etc

Today, there are as many as 100 organizations claiming to be a part of the Latter Day Saint movement, most centered in Utah or Missouri. Most regard their own group, however small, to be the only legitimate Christian church. Most of these organizations are very small, but overall, but the second largest denomination, the Community of Christ, reports over 200,000 members.

• The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (a.k.a. The Church of Jesus Christ, and the LDS) is by far the largest Mormon denomination. It is a continuation of the "Rocky Mountain Saint" branch of Mormonism.
• The more liberal Community of Christ (formerly called the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints) is second in size. It is a continuation of the "Prairie Saint" movement. Although generally referred to as "Mormons," they do not use the term themselves, because of its association with polygamy and because they believe the name was not part of the original church.
• Many additional small Mormon faith groups, including:
  • Aaronic Order: unknown membership; 6 centers; 20 ministers
  • Apostolic United Brethren: about 7,000 members. They disagree with the LDS' decision to allow ordination of African-Americans and allowing women to assume leadership positions.
  • Church of Christ (Fetting/Bronson): about 2000 members
  • Church of Christ (Temple Lot): about 2400 members
  • The Church of Christ "With The Elijah Message," established anew in 1929 12,500 members worldwide
  • Church of Jesus Christ (Bickertonite): about 2700 members
  • The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints: about 11 million members
  • The Community of Christ: about 250,000 members. This denomination was formerly known as the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints -- the "RLDS Church". It was formed in 1860 by remnants of the original church who did not make the trek to Utah. They reject certain beliefs and practices of the LDS church, including marriage sealing for eternity; they allow both men and women into the priesthood; their services are open to the public. They have about 250,000 members.
  • United Order Effort: a polygamy practicing group, excommunicated by the main LDS church, of perhaps 10,000 members
  • The Restoration Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. It split from the Reorganized Church in 1991 because of the latter's liberal theology. It is centered in Independence, Missouri, and had an estimated membership of 2,500 in mid-1996. They publish a periodical "The Restoration Advocate" six times a year

[CynicalBear]

It’s like they put blinders on.

[Elsie]

Today, there are as many as 100 organizations claiming to be a part of the Latter Day Saint movement, most centered in Utah or Missouri.

It's too bad that SLC considers ALL of them to be APOSTATE!