Posted on 01/12/2014 7:49:32 PM PST by restornu
It is in the bible. Apparently your greek and aramaic aren’t good enough to allow you to follow the logic of the trinitarian view point. more’s the shame
I do believe in the Trinity or 3 just not all in one substance
I am aware of 3 distinct personages.
And if I were you I wouldn’t be using the name Steve O because there is a a ‘comic’ tv guy that uses that handle and he is a hot mess.
I'm not anti-trinitarian...I'm pro-bible!
“Apparently Matthew 28:19 was changed
after Eusebius wrote his Proof of the Gospel.”
Nice try:
“In fact, this command [to baptize in the name of Father, Son and Holy Spirit] was so well known that many writers alluded to it without naming the specific Gospel from which they were quoting. What this shows is that these Christians assumed that their readers were so familiar with this formula, and already knew in which of the four Gospels this instruction could be found, that they didn’t feel the need to specify the source.
We will look at just a few of examples from these early Christian writings, all of which predate the Council of Nicea.
Didache - Teaching of the Twelve Apostles
Here is some historical background regarding the Didache so that the readers can appreciate the importance of this document:
Since it was discovered in a monastery in Constantinople and published by P. Bryennios in 1883, the Didache or Teaching of the Twelve Apostles has continued to be one of the most disputed of early Christian texts. It has been depicted by scholars as anything between the original of the Apostolic Decree (c. 50 AD) and a late archaising fiction of the early third century. It bears no date itself, nor does it make reference to any datable external event, yet the picture of the Church which it presents could only be described as primitive, reaching back to the very earliest stages of the Church’s order and practice in a way which largely agrees with the picture presented by the NT, while at the same time posing questions for many traditional interpretations of this first period of the Church’s life. Fragments of the Didache were found at Oxyrhyncus (P. Oxy 1782) from the fourth century and in coptic translation (P. Lond. Or. 9271) from 3/4th century. Traces of the use of this text, and the high regard it enjoyed, are widespread in the literature of the second and third centuries especially in Syria and Egypt. It was used by the compilator of the Didascalia (C 2/3rd) and the Liber Graduun (C 3/4th), as well as being absorbed in toto by the Apostolic Constitutions (C c. 3/4th, abbreviated as Ca) and partially by various Egyptian and Ethiopian Church Orders, after which it ceased to circulate independently. Athanasius describes it as ‘appointed by the Fathers to be read by those who newly join us, and who wish for instruction in the word of goodness’ [Festal Letter 39:7]. Hence a date for the Didache in its present form later than the second century must be considered unlikely, and a date before the end of the first century probable. (Jonathan Draper, Gospel Perspectives, v. 5, p. 269)
He then states in a footnote (op. cit., p. 284), “A new consensus is emerging for a date c. 100 AD.” (Source)
This document twice alludes to the Matthean Baptismal formula, serving as an independent witness that this formula was known and in use by the early Church:
Chapter 7. Concerning Baptism. And concerning baptism, baptize this way: Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living water. But if you have no living water, baptize into other water; and if you cannot do so in cold water, do so in warm. But if you have neither, pour out water three times upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit. But before the baptism let the baptizer fast, and the baptized, and whoever else can; but you shall order the baptized to fast one or two days before. (Roberts-Donaldson translation; source)
Here is another translation of this same passage:
7:1 But concerning baptism, thus shall ye baptize.
7:2 Having first recited all these things, baptize {in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit} in living (running) water.
7:3 But if thou hast not living water, then baptize in other water;
7:4 and if thou art not able in cold, then in warm.
7:5 But if thou hast neither, then pour water on the head thrice in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.
7:6 But before the baptism let him that baptizeth and him that is baptized fast, and any others also who are able;
7:7 and thou shalt order him that is baptized to fast a day or two before. (J.B. Lightfoot’s translation; source)
Ignatius of Antioch (ca. AD. 107-112)
Chapter IX.-The Old Testament is Good: the New Testament is Better.
… The priests indeed, and the ministers of the word, are good; but the High Priest is better, to whom the holy of holies has been committed, and who alone has been entrusted with the secrets of God. The ministering powers of God are good. The Comforter is holy, and the Word is holy, the Son of the Father, by whom He made all things, and exercises a providence over them all. This is the Way which leads to the Father, the Rock, the Defence, the Key, the Shepherd, the Sacrifice, the Door of knowledge, through which have entered Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, Moses and all the company of the prophets, and these pillars of the world, the apostles, and the spouse of Christ, on whose account He poured out His own blood, as her marriage portion, that He might redeem her. All these things tend towards the unity of the one and only true God. But the Gospel possesses something transcendent [above the former dispensation], viz. the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, His passion, and the resurrection itself. For those things which the prophets announced, saying, “Until He come for whom it is reserved, and He shall be the expectation of the Gentiles,” have been fulfilled in the Gospel, [our Lord saying,] “Go ye and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.” All then are good together, the law, the prophets, the apostles, the whole company [of others] that have believed through them: only if we love one another. (Epistle of Ignatius to the Philadelphians; source)
Chapter II.-Unity of the Three Divine Persons.
There is then one God and Father, and not two or three; One who is; and there is no other besides Him, the only true [God]. For “the Lord thy God,” saith [the Scripture], “is one Lord.” And again, “Hath not one God created us? Have we not all one Father? And there is also one Son, God the Word. For “the only-begotten Son,” saith [the Scripture], “who is in the bosom of the Father.” And again, “One Lord Jesus Christ.” And in another place, “What is His name, or what His Son’s name, that we may know? “ And there is also one Paraclete. For “there is also,” saith [the Scripture], “one Spirit,” since “we have been called in one hope of our calling.” And again, “We have drunk of one Spirit,” with what follows. And it is manifest that all these gifts [possessed by believers] “worketh one and the self-same Spirit.” There are not then either three Fathers, or three Sons, or three Paracletes, but one Father, and one Son, and one Paraclete. Wherefore also the Lord, when He sent forth the apostles to make disciples of all nations, commanded them to “baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost,” not unto one [person] having three names, nor into three [persons] who became incarnate, but into three possessed of equal honour. (Epistle of Ignatius to the Philippians; source)
Rest at link:
http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/badawi_mt28_20.htm
No kidding, you should look at some of your black and hateful posts on this thread, you are even pinging people to come to it as you assault them, and assault the rest of us with the language and imagery you are using.
One problem with modalism is the Baptism of the Lord. It would seem that a sort of misleading display is going on when there’s a voice calling IHS “my ... son” and the Holy Spirit descending “like a dove.” I would be interested in the modalist account of this. Three different manifestations at the same time giving the impression of three “actors,” but it’s not really three at all? It seems almost deceptive.
And I always wonder what people think of the word “person” in trinitarian discussions. “Hypostasis” strikes me as marginally clearer.
And as GPH suggests, the article is a kind of confusion of authorities and their interpretation. It startled me to see a quote from the (pseudo-) Athanasian creed, but not set apart by quotes or identified.
I suppose that modern non-trinitarians know as little about 1.7k years of the discussion as trinitarians know about them.
and which translation are you using...
An arrogant screed without substance, posted by a fake “pastor” who does not understand or believe in the Great Commission.
Be for the creation who does God love and who does he talk to?
What’s a “personage”?
Nah, I love those guys...they're my buddies.... :-)
“I do believe in the Trinity or 3 just not all in one substance”
Well duh, the LDS is polytheistic. I mentioned this in my post earlier. And your religion also teaches that you will become a God after your death. The Armstrong cults share a similar view.
But it is your view which cannot stand 2 seconds of scripture. Observe:
Against the Mormon idea that God was once a man on another planet who, by being a good enough Mormon, became a God:
“before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.” (Isaiah 43:10)
Against the idea that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are three separate gods:
“I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.” (Isaiah 44:6)
DKC, you're well known on this forum for adding pointless heat and zero light.
Two anti-Trinitarians agreeing, what a surprise.
I’m not anti-Trinitarian...I’m pro-bible!
****
Ditto!
They don’t have those verses on Kolob.
You are? When did this happen?
Kind of like this post??
This is not my article if you read it carefully...
But thanks for thinking I could write so well!
Say as you will, but the Christian church dealt with your Mormon heresy of Arianism long before young joe smith came along.
It is simply Satan’s fashion show. There are only so many ways to pervert the truth and he brings them back regularly to claim a new generation.
I do give the mormonic cult extra credit for combining so many different condemned heresies into one new religion - and then mixing it with New Age thought and more gods than Hinduism.
“Come out from among them and be holy”
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.