Posted on 01/12/2014 5:53:46 AM PST by knarf
You don't need a priest, or sacraments, or a "church", or a denomination, or charismatic 'gifts' or baptism or hierarchal permission, sanction nor absolution ...
>> “If someone falls short does the Holy Spirit disappear?” <<
Are you sure that is the correct question?
Yeshua has told us to a certainty that the love of many will wax cold. Would he deceive us?
He has told us that many that thought that they were righteous would be told “depart from me, I never knew ye”
Don’t you think that the fact that he said these words means that we need a sober and incisive look at our love?
David failed miserably and once fingered by Nathan did not deny it and repented. He and Bathsheba did endure earthly chastisement with the death of their baby and later David betrayed by his son.
>> “The Bible, which comes from Latin meaning “books” is what the Catholic Church gave to the world.” <<
.
Thanks be to Yehova that is far from reality!
The descendants of Jacob were the ones entrusted with “The Oracles of God” by Paul’s testimony, and they also had the Gospels and the Epistles of the apostles for three centuries before the pagan emperor Constantine made his ‘catholic’ church.
The Jewish apostles and their disciples that followed The Way gave us the New Testament, before the catholic church murdered them for keeping the sabbath and the feasts.
I am sure Paul and the remainder of the NT writers truly appreciate men far removed from the events gave their approval.
Perhaps another way to look at it is, the Scriptures are authoritative and the good men realized this and bound the books for other faithful Christians. The men did not make the Scriptures authoritative. It would be like artists getting together today and saying the works of Michelangelo is art. Thank you very much but my eyes already realize that without the help of those artists. Thanking the Louvre for preserving beautiful art does not make the curators artists.
“my basis for assurance of truth is the same basis by which the church began, requiring Truth to be manifest by Scriptural substantiation in word and in power”
But, when the Church began, there was no set canon of Scripture. This led to much error and heresy. This is why the Church set about to confirm what was Scripture. The New Testament as we know it, was not compiled until 367 AD. Three Catholic synods were then held to ratify this list, and in 405 AD Pope Innocent I declared these 27 scrolls to be the universal New Testament for all Christians.
” Scripture as the wholly inspired and basically literal word of God is the supreme infallible authority”
You wouldn’t know it were so if it were not for the Catholic Church. Ask yourself how you know the Bible to be divinely inspired. The answers are circuitous. For a truly divine work to be divine it must naturally be confirmed by a relevant authority. Is not the Quran thought to be divine by Muslims?
For something to be so crucial to man, so important for man’s salvation, certainly we would have an authority to tell us of its certainty and accepted divinely inspired Words. This is so. Of course, if the Catholic Church were not the pillar and Truth of Jesus Christ’s Holy Word, surely their confirmation would not be accepted by any Christian. Yet, it is.
As to your scriptural deference. How do you know it is divinely inspired Word of God? Of course your answer must come back to what I have written above. Playing Scriptural Verse Chess is a game that can never end. We can flip verse for verse to support our perspective, but it comes back to our interpretation of that Scripture in the end. God wanted unity. One Church, the one established by Him.
Matthew 23:1-36 KJV
Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments, And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues, And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi. But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.
But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows’ houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves. Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor! Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold? And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty. Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift? Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon. And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein.
And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men’s bones, and of all uncleanness. Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
You stated clearly that James is wrong when you said,
You'll find there in no call to repent either, but to BELIEVE (which in itself is repentance)... "
in your comment #214.
Unless you are now saying you've changed your mind and now agree with what the Catholic Church has taught for 2000 years, that works and belief are inseparable, you cannot claim that we only need to believe and at the same time agree with James saying Faith without works is dead.
Being inconsistent and contradicting oneself as well as Scripture is typical of the Self and Self Alone folks who insist that although they deny the perfection and power of the Holy Spirit they're never in error.
I get sick and tired of people discussing works as if they are something we did. They aren't. They are something that God prepared for us. If we are performing works outside of God's personal intimate instruction which He imparts to us, then they are done in vain. But if we are walking in the works that He prepared for us in advance, then we are simply being obedient in the things He has given us to do. All credit and glory goes to Him.
You must be projecting someone else’s post. Where have I or anyone else suggest Grace is “parked outside ready to use it?”
A lot of mind reading and stereotyping going on here.
I responded to the dead faith reference. My point? If someone says they have faith and the walk does not match the talk, then as Peter and Paul tell us that person should examine themselves to see if they are in the faith.
It is the normal false tactic used by RCs to project antinomianism on Christians who do not kiss the bishop of Rome’s ring. It is a fallacious argument. It would be akin to a Christian saying Roman Catholics can sin with impunity from Monday to Saturday evening, go to confession Saturday night, take communion on Sunday and rinse and repeat starting Monday.
You would tell me “no way that person is not truly repentant and confession was not genuine and received communion unfaithfully.”
Those strawmen huh?
You forgot the parable of the soils. All linked to what you posted.
I do, however, want to point out the power to endure to the end comes from the Holy Spirit. The same trust and faith in Jesus Christ with regards to justification continues in sanctification and enduring to our glorification. Paul tells us in Romans 8 God is sovereign through the entire “process.”
But as you note (to borrow a term from Daniel1212) we are not comatose during this process. As I said in a previous post: our works do not save us but when we are saved by Grace through faith and born again much was given to us, much is expected and demanded.
To put it another way, you don’t sign a free agent all star to have him sit the bench. God expects us to play each game a full 9 innings for the entire season. Indeed endure to the end.
You'll find there in no call to repent either, but to BELIEVE (which in itself is repentance)... "
in your comment #214.
So you are making it up after all...Why am I not surprised...
There is NO Baptism command in Paul’s commission to preach to the Gentiles, even though he did.
You'll find there in no call to repent either, but to BELIEVE (which in itself is repentance)...
Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
You want to show us where in James it says to repent??? Can't do it??? Don't you hate it when people catch you making stuff up???
"Done in God", belief is surrender so Christ acts through us as you say. That's the battle Paul describes when he says, "For I do not that good which I will; but the evil which I hate, that I do.", the battle to surrender the will of the flesh that wants to call the shots.
Christ manifests His presence by doing His works through us, not by us doing what we think is good.
I think that's where a lot of people go down a rabbit hole when the refuse to accept that faith without works is dead. They don't undersatand and don't want to understand that works are done through us rather than by us because they want to claim ownership of and take pride in the works they may do. Likewise, people who point to "their" works as proof of their relationship with Christ are pointing to an indication of their own failure to surrender, the claim of ownership of the good they do.
We can only know people by their fruits because the fruits of Christ indwelling are fruits the person doing His will doesn't claim ownership of but glorifies God for doing through such a feeble instrument. We should long to have Christ work through us but constantly on guard against letting the inborn human desire to be in charge leading us down a path that seems right to us but isn't the Path Christ wants us to follow.
Reading your comment brought to mind the parable Jesus gave of the prodigal son who took his inheritance and ran off to live in debauchery. It was when he was at his lowest point - out of money, no more fair-weather friends, jealous of the food the pigs were getting fed - that he finally came to his senses and in humility and repentance returned back to his father's house. At least he might let me be a servant and I can get something to eat, he thought. But what DID happen? His father never stopped looking for him and the moment he saw his son approaching he ran to him, kissed him, hugged him, clothed him, put a ring on his finger, threw a feast for him because his son was lost but had now been found. I was thinking that the son squandered his inheritance, didn't he? But here was his father receiving him back to the house, NOT as a servant but as a son, giving him clothing and a ring (probably not a cheap one) and throwing a party so that all his friends could join him in his rejoicing.
Some people want to take that parable of Jesus and claim it says the son represented a Christian who went off into sin and who was now going to hell because of it. I don't see it that way at all. The son never stopped being a son. The father (representing our Heavenly Father) never gave up on him and never rejected him. The son DID come to repentance and DID return home and the father forgave him and restored him to the family as if he had never left.
It's curious how the "good" son that stuck around was so jealous and miserable to see how his father was acting towards his brother. He doesn't deserve ANY of this, he probably thought, and that IS true - NONE of us deserves grace or mercy. Those who come to God with a broken and contrite heart will not be turned away. It is what God desires from us all. Would it have been better had the son never left and gone off into sin? Sure. But I guarantee that it was the prodigal son who lived in greater gratitude and love for the father for the rest of his life than the son who considered himself better than his brother.
Like you said, Metmom, those who have experienced the genuine mercy and grace of God - who have recognized their own utter depravity and inability to ever merit or deserve heaven - are the ones who truly understand what living in grace is all about.
"Why would one who receives a gift take a baseball bat to it and ruin it? "
So I was supposed to realize the foregoing question from you referred to beating yourself with a baseball bat to ruin an internal gift?
Taking something at face value is hardly a "Strawman" and the image of ruining something by beating it with a baseball bat isn't an image related to ruining something internal to oneself except in the case of demon possession or a few rather rare types of insanity.
So, because the Muslims think the Quran is divine scripture, that means it is? Your logic breaks down right there. For writings to actually BE divine, they would have to both really be FROM Almighty God as well as prove that they are in some undeniable way. In the Old Testament, God repeatedly told the Jewish people that He was sending them prophets and that these prophets would speak the words God wanted them to know, believe, trust and meditate upon. One way He said they would know what was truly from Him was He would tell them things before they happened (prophecy) so that when they happened like He said they would, they could know true prophets from false ones. Read Deuteronomy 13 and 18, for example. It tells you that exactly. The New Testament was written in the same way as holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit (2 Peter 1:21).
The words GOD ensured were written for our salvation, assurance, exhortation, edification and so that we would be thoroughly furnished for all good works able to live lives honoring, glorifying and pleasing to God were NOT left up to the whims of men hundreds of years later. The gospels and epistles were received, copied, circulated, taught, referenced and obeyed long before a group got together to "formalize" what was or was not God-breathed Scripture. God's word was the truth, was manifest AS the truth and was the power of God unto salvation. Those who are Christ's hear and recognize His voice and His words would be divine whether or not a group decided they were. I sincerely hope you understand that point. Scripture was STILL Scripture before there was a formal "canon". All the canon did was "officially" confirm what was already believed to BE the word of God. Canon means "rule of faith" and God's word has always been the authority for our faith.
Except the question is belief yet you continue to pretend that isn't the issue.
As for James and repentance, some people obviously don't know a call to repent when they see it.
James 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners : and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
Thanks and God bless you, too!
Thanks! It’s definitely better out of the Wilderness. And it’s already been a joy.
What a shock! You actually are sounding like an Evangelical Protestant here! Thank you Jesus for answered prayer. ;o)
As is pointing out truths with scriptures.
Never get an "amen" for scriptures showing the difference between Biblical truth and clinged to traditions trumping God's Word.
Again like the Mormons, it appears there are Godly discussions in which they are forbidden to engage.
Can't allow bubbles to be burst that are blown with "holy" water.
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