"Organizations do not have a lock on the spirit of God. If someone exhibits these characteristics on a consistent basis they do have the spirit of God and they are a Christian. There are many people in various organizations on FreeRepublic that exhibit these traits. Many Catholic, LDS, Protestant and Messianic and other members of FreeRepublic exhibit these traits and thus do have the spirit of God and are Christians."
ALL: Now, since DouglasKC has been associated with the United Church of God, a break-off of Herbert W. Armstrong's Worldwide Church of God...what has Herbert W. Armstrong written that directly counters DouglasKC's claim? [Note ESPECIALLY the underlined portion below]:
"Mr. Armstrong NEVER said you could be outside the Worldwide Church of God, where Christ was working and leading, and still be part of the true Church and Body of Christ. You saw his words many times. He understood that one could become converted outside that Body, because he always knew that some “few names” in Sardis had God’s Spirit—“had not defiled their garments” (Rev. 3:4). However, he knew these WOULD eventually HAVE TO be led to Christ’s Body. You will see this even more plainly a little later."
Source: The True Church: One Organization, or Many?: Chapter Nine
[My note: Please note that Armstrong defined "Christ's body" as HAVING to have a church headquartered in Pasadena...much like the Mormons define the "one and only church" having to be headquartered in Salt Lake City]:
"This is the final time you will hear from Mr. Armstrong. Note well his words. The publication date—1954!—shows how long ago these points were believed by Mr. Armstrong and understood in the WCG. Time has not changed their application. Notice how the word “enemy” and the term “serving the devil” come into use: ... “Either the Church of God with headquarters in Pasadena is the ONE AND ONLY true Body of Christ, thru whom Christ carries on HIS WORK, or else it is deceived, or it is a fraud. There is no other possibility. YOU MUST FACE IT, and DECIDE WHICH ALTERNATIVE IS TRUE. If it is the Body thru whom Christ works in carrying on HIS WORK to the world for this time, then it is THE ONLY BODY that is being used of Christ. Christ is not divided!” [Note how Mr. Armstrong defines Christ not being divided.]"
Source: The True Church: One Organization, or Many?: Chapter Eleven
Here is a further explanation from this same source, in a FAQ format:
"Question 9: If only one organization forms the Church and Body of Christ, what about baptisms taking place in the splinters? Are there instances where these are valid—where there is a genuine conversion occurring?"
The answer comes in a quote from Mr. Armstrong:
“Can one who does not know of the true organized Body doing God’s Work and therefore is outside of it, be a member of the true Church which Christ built? The answer is yes—for it is possible for one to have truly repented, believed, and received God’s Spirit—and be following that Spirit as far as he sees and understands—who does not know of the organized Work Christ is using today. But surely God’s Spirit in him would lead one, in due time, into his part in the organized Body the living Christ is directing. [Reread this sentence until it cannot be forgotten.]"
“Is it possible that one who has joined a sect, church, or denomination NOT doing God’s Work, might be truly converted, and led by God’s Spirit in him?"
"“The answer is YES—I have known of a few. But in EVERY CASE, either they came INTO the organized spiritual organism Christ is using in the real Work of God—or, when their eyes were opened to further light and truth, they rejected it and LOST the Spirit of God. And this was amply demonstrated by the fruits.” [Now reread this.]
Source: The True Church: One Organization, or Many?: Chapter Nine
IoW Herbert W. Armstrong taught that "Yes," people can be converted or gain access to the Holy Spirit outside of Armstrong's Worldwide Church of God headquartered in Pasadena; but if you were to remain "you would HAVE to eventually be led" to Armstrong's church -- or elsewise, without any exception Armstrong saw, you would "lose the spirit of God."
Armstrong assured that this was "surely so."
Now...if Douglas disagrees with Herbert W. Armstrong on this subject, well glory be! To a degree, that would be a great thing!
But IF he does, does the UCG know that a certain "Douglas" in KC may depart from HWA on this subject matter? And are "the splinters" aware of this?
Armstrong assured that this was "surely so." Now...if Douglas disagrees with Herbert W. Armstrong on this subject, well glory be! To a degree, that would be a great thing!
But IF he does, does the UCG know that a certain "Douglas" in KC may depart from HWA on this subject matter? And are "the splinters" aware of this?
Hello Colorfornian. I'll answer to this satisfy your apparent curiosity.
Providing these are accurate and not out of context posts then of course I disagree with the assertions.
Belonging to Worldwide Church of God, the Presbyterian church or any other religious organization has nothing to do with our salvation. Zero. Zip. Zilch. Salvation is through Christ. (Romans 6:23,1 John 5:12, John 10:9) ).
To teach that belonging or not belonging to a certain organization will make one gain or lose the spirit of God is of course a non-biblical heresy.
I have no idea what the other organizations you reference believe specifically since I'm not or have never been a member of any of them, including Worldwide nor have I studied them to any great degree.
I am well aware of what United Church of God teaches on it...the corporate church teaches and affirms what I just stated though not in as harsh terms as I just used. In other words, they teach what is biblical and thus what I believe.
Take care and may God pour out his blessings on you.