The Ravenous Wolves of FreeRepublic

Today | Douglaskc

[Colofornian]

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. This is past tense, it had already happened at the time of Pauls writing.

Yes

Your Citation of Rom. 8:17: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.The above had not happened yet, it was future, they were not yet glorified.

Well, you cite 8:17 but leave out 8:15-17a...it's all one paragraph, really

15: "rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship.
This is recent past tense.
And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.”
This is present tense.
16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children.
This is present tense
17 Now if we are children,
This is present tense
then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.
This is both present and future tense: An heir apparent is still an heir, even if all he has received is a "down payment" on that ... and the NT talks about the Holy Spirit being our down payment.

Most of Rom. 8:15-17 is present tense...with v. 15 even being (recent) past tense.

So in v. 15...already adopted...v. 15 we don't have to wait to cry "Daddy"...v. 16..."we ARE children"...v. 17 "if we ARE children"...and then the rest of v. 17 talks about a future reception of what heirs receive in glory

23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. - They were still waiting for the final adoption.

Yes, and Paul is specific about what aspect of this adoption awaits fruition...a bodily placement... (as in a bodily placement into those "many rooms" Jesus talked about in John 14)

The parallel I would give you here is if you and your spouse adopted a child from Asia or Africa. The adoption process is well COMPLETED before the child ever leaves Asia or Africa. That child IS yours.

But say you were with that child in Africa, but couldn't make it home for any # of reasons: Bad weather; or civil war in Central Africa; or some other crisis kept you from temporarily bringing that child bodily home. You are ALREADY with that child...just on different turf. That child has ALREADY been adopted. The "becoming your child" paperwork is done; the custody transfer has ALREADY occurred. All that's waiting is that child to bodily come home to the room set aside for him/her.

[DouglasKC]

What I like to do is invite: I'll happily challenge every Christian I meet to keep the Feasts for a year as a way of educating and edifying themselves, and direct them to resources to help them do just that. But if someone doesn't bite or their understanding of Scripture is that this would somehow be detrimental to their walk with the Lord, I may cheerfully argue with them if they're the sort to enjoy it, but it doesn't mean that they're not my brother

I agree...I see in scripture God's desire to save as many as possible and to my way of thinking that's going to be most of mankind..if not in this world then in the world to come. But either way I try to remember that almost everyone I run into is a Christian or at least a future Christian. God is going to win.

But you can see it's an uphill struggle to share that viewpoint. It is. What do you think it's dealing with, out of curiosity?

In traditional Christianity today it's mostly tradition as you pointed out in one of your posts above. Satanic deception plays a large part in some of though. Not sure what the messianic position is on demons and such but I think there's an ongoing battle to smear and demean such things as the holy days of the Lord, the Lords food prohibitions, righteous behavior, repentance, attaining to the holiness of Christ, etc. etc.

I totally "get" if I'm public in promoting the holy days that people will react negatively. Your post 514 sums it up...there wasn't much, if anything, biblical about not observing the feast days. Protestants take that as a challenge. Most Catholics on the other hand accept it and recognize that the change is validated because of tradition, the church, and not necessarily on scriptural grounds. There's no debating Catholics on that. I can't debate tradition.

Had I gotten a hardline Messianic hammering away at me during that time, I'd probably have rejected it. Why should I not be equally gracious and let the Spirit work in someone who may just be starting down a new and difficult road?

There's certainly a line there. I'm not always successful but teaching and presenting the whole bible requires a certain amount of standing our ground when teaching biblical truths. That can easily be misconstrued as badgering. In forums such as this I'm rarely trying to convert or push the person I'm debating with. Rather it's an attempt to put a witness out there for someone who may stumble across the debate or come across it later. The challenge is to do it in a way that reflects Christ and the teaching of the first disciples.

2Ti 2:23 But avoid foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing that they generate strife.
2Ti 2:24 And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient,
2Ti 2:25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth,
2Ti 2:26 and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.

The trick for me is walking the line between foolish and ignorant disputes and patient teaching.

[DouglasKC]

I also am not trying to pick on any one, i believe it is fine to hold service any day of the week except Saturday. FOURTH COMMANDMENT. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. And as has already been stated. Genesis 2 3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made. It was a day of rest.

Yes, but I think it goes a little deeper than that.

Isa 58:13 "If you turn away your foot from the Sabbath, From doing your pleasure on My holy day, And call the Sabbath a delight, The holy day of the LORD honorable, And shall honor Him, not doing your own ways, Nor finding your own pleasure, Nor speaking your own words,
Isa 58:14 Then you shall delight yourself in the LORD; And I will cause you to ride on the high hills of the earth, And feed you with the heritage of Jacob your father. The mouth of the LORD has spoken."

This has to do with recognizing and living in the holiness of the day. In my understanding and experience the sabbath and the feast days of the Lord are absolutely infused with his presence that is on a level above and beyond his presence in our lives at other times. The verses above are basically instructing us to find and recognize that holiness, to live it and breathe it and forget about what man's considers "restful". Sleep all day? Well that might make us feel better physically but there's not really a spiritual component to it. Worship on the sabbath is part of finding it a delight...part of recognizing and honoring what God made holy.

[DouglasKC]

the Apostles did not emphasize the Feasts for the Gentile disciples (though neither did they disinvite them), b) Christians do generally have reasonable arguments for their particular practices in this regard that show their loyalty to the Author of Scripture, c)

I did want to expand on this a bit. I think it was normative and expected that they (gentiles)would keep the sabbath and the holy days. There's no controversy at all about it in scripture. By comparison circumcision of gentiles was a huge issue in the early church. The detractors of early Christianity would surely have eviscerated Paul or any other disciple for even suggesting that it was "ok" for gentiles not to observe the 4th commandment or the feast of the Lord. Everyone knew this was a teaching of God in scripture.

That's how I see it.... it's like how today everyone "knows" that you go to church on Sunday and observe Christmas and Easter if you're a Christian.

[Buggman]

I do not think true Christians would, but i do believe there are some so called Christian religions that would and did.

Was Martin Luther a true Christian, or not?

[ravenwolf]

Was Martin Luther a true Christian, or not?

---

I don,t know anything about him.

[Tennessee Nana]

Up to 527

[ravenwolf]

The parallel I would give you here is if you and your spouse adopted a child from Asia or Africa. The adoption process is well COMPLETED before the child ever leaves Asia or Africa. That child IS yours.

---

I understand what you are saying and i think i agree, but i do not really know.

Is it once saved, always saved? i don,t know.

Could the child that we adopt be killed on the way?

Could we change our hearts before death?

---

So it’s clear that we are sons of God in one sense, but we are to become sons of God in another sense.”

---

I was just saying that i can see both points.

23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, This was Present

waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. all in the same verse but this had not happened yet.

17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

if so be that we suffer with him, there is the word if.

Like i said, i agree but i realize i could be wrong.

[ravenwolf]

Yes, but I think it goes a little deeper than that.

---

You could be right, but Jesus said you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free.

Maybe it is just me because i do not like fences or walls, and i do not like authority except what i see in the Words of Jesus, i will take my chances.

Jesus said man was not made for the Sabbath, but the Sabbath was made for man.

So that is the reason for my take on the rest.

[DouglasKC]

You could be right, but Jesus said you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free. Maybe it is just me because i do not like fences or walls, and i do not like authority except what i see in the Words of Jesus, i will take my chances. Jesus said man was not made for the Sabbath, but the Sabbath was made for man. So that is the reason for my take on the rest.

God bless in your journey and your studies.

[Kevmo]

So when Douglas claims you’re going to find something ‘different’ from what I have provided on the UCG website, he’s bluffing, hoping you don’t actually check, and confuse him for a Trinitarian Christian.
***It’s a tricky feat. From their website, they skirt around the issue like an ice skater doing a magic trick.

http://www.ucg.org/fundamental-beliefs-info/

God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit

We believe in one God, the Father, eternally existing, who is a Spirit, a personal Being of supreme intelligence, knowledge, love, justice, power and authority. He, through Jesus Christ, is the Creator of the heavens and the earth and all that is in them. He is the Source of life and the One for whom human life exists. We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ of Nazareth, who is the Word and has eternally existed. We believe that He is the Messiah, the Christ, the divine Son of the living God, conceived of the Holy Spirit, born in the human flesh of the virgin Mary. We believe that it is by Him that God created all things and that without Him was not anything made that was made. We believe in the Holy Spirit, as the Spirit of God and of Christ Jesus. The Holy Spirit is the power of God and the Spirit of life eternal (2 Timothy 1:7
; Ephesians 4:6
; 1 Corinthians 8:6
; John 1:1-4
; Colossians 1:16
).

[Buggman]

Go find out, then get back to me. He’s an interesting individual.

[ravenwolf]

I read the 95 Theses and i will say that he was a Christian.

The first 4 are readily found in scripture, and i agree.

1. Our Lord and Master Jesus Christ, in saying, “Repent ye, etc.,” intended that the whole life of his believers on earth should be a constant penance.

2. And the word “penance” neither can, nor may, be understood as referring to the Sacrament of Penance, that is, to confession and atonement as exercised under the priest’s ministry.

3. Nevertheless He does not think of inward penance only: rather is inward penance worthless unless it produces various outward mortifications of the flesh.

4. Therefore mortification continues as long as hatred of oneself continues, that is to say, true inward penance lasts until entrance into the Kingdom of Heaven.

This can all be found in Matthew 25: 31 to 45 James 2:18, Romans 7: 14 to 25

The rest of the Theses seems to me about the Pope remitting punishments, the only ones he can remit are the ones brought on by his order and has nothing to do with God, which i agree.

And indulgence,s which in these days any one who can read can see is not of God but of the devil.

But in those days many people could not read and very few had a Bible, they only had what the Church wanted them to have.

[Buggman]

So would I. But now go look up and read "The Jews and Their Lies," which he wrote later in life.

Shalom

[ravenwolf]

So would I. But now go look up and read “The Jews and Their Lies,” which he wrote later in life.

---

Ok, i only admitted he was a Christian, i did not say true Christian.

This is obviously the only book Adolf Hitler ever read about Christianity.

But at any rate if he had the power of the Catholic Church he would have been even worse that what they were.

[Buggman]

And yet, this is the man who risked his life opposing the Catholic Church to restore the doctrine of grace, thus launching the Protestant movement. Moreover, now go look up "That Jesus Christ Was Born a Jew," which he wrote earlier in life. He comes across as positively philo-Semitic there.

Suddenly, he's not such an easy man to categorize, is he?

[ravenwolf]

Suddenly, he’s not such an easy man to categorize, is he?

---

Right, he sure made a turn around in 20 years.

[Buggman]

"Jesus Christ was Born a Jew" was written first--decades earlier, in fact. When Luther wrote "The Jews and Their Lies," he was old, tired, and of failing health. He was frustrated at the Jewish community's cold shoulder to the Gospel that he was preaching, and had been exposed to some passages in the Talmud that are not all that complimentary about Yeshua. He had also become very anti-Sabbatarian because he had seen the damage that the Anabaptists had done in Muenster, and fell back on his native German anti-Semitism in arguing against it.

The flaws of great men of history reverberate just as much as their successes, and I think that is true of Luther. I accept that he was a true Christian, and like all men deeply flawed. His flaws of pride and temper caught up with him later in life, just as King David's weakness towards the fairer sex caught up with the man after Hashem's own heart. Luther was also simply a reflection of just how much anti-Semitism had infected the Christian community over the millennia since Nicea.

You can no more disown the sins of Christianity's past with the "no true Scottsman" fallacy than the Jews can disown the sins of our own.

Shalom.

[ravenwolf]

You can no more disown the sins of Christianity’s past with the “no true Scottsman” fallacy than the Jews can disown the sins of our own.

---

True, all men have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

I think the word true Christian is used for lack of a better word, at least in my case it is.

It is a word i may apply to very few people and never to myself, what would we be like if we were being true Christians?

If i am broke down along the road i will hope a hell raising rough neck, a lumberjack or some one in that category comes along.

I see a true Christian as some one who is not afraid to give some one a hand even if it may be an enemy, that is what Jesus meant when he talked about love.

Other people may judge them by what they appear to be in Church service.

Some Christians would not have anything to do with any one who has been in jail, blind to the fact that even our lord and his apostles spent time in jail.

Others will spend their life shaking the hands of those in jail.

I am not very familiar with Anabaptists but i believe they were teaching what Jesus taught, if they lived what they were teaching or not i have no idea.

I believe the Amish may go to far in showing that they are not of this world, because they are trying to live in the world of the past but if we are trying to live in the world Jesus lived in we should remember that it was the same world he said,(you are not of this world ).

I am not a Judge of martin Luther nor any one else including Hitler, neither am i a follower of any one, i believe in God and believe Jesus was his only begotten son born of a virgin.

If there is a one and only true Church of Christ ( which i doubt very much )i would hesitate to enter into it because i would defile it.

So i can see very well how Luther could come to the attitude
that he did and his hurt pride that a lot of people did not see it his way.

I think Paul had a little problem in that same direction even though he was most likely right in most of what he said.

The new covenant
Jeremiah 31
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

The Churches were and are to serve that purpose and even with all of the mistakes and even false doctrine there are very few people who has not heard of the gospel of Jesus.

They can tromp on it or they can accept it.

And it has been preserved and translated into all languages so that we can see for our selves what it says.

So while Martin Luther and many others including the Catholic Church had a very big part in bringing all of this about, it is not their word but the word of God which they brought to us that we are to learn from.

[DouglasKC]

btt!