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How Do You Know The Torah is True?
TorahCafe.com ^ | Dec 2012 | Rabbi Lawrence Kelemen

Posted on 12/30/2013 8:39:57 PM PST by Phinneous

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To: Phinneous
The rulings of the local rabbi are oral laws that carry with them no authority from God who said not to add to or take away from that which He gave to Moses to write down for our instruction, our Torah. And that is where the deception lies, calling man made laws Torah when they are 'chuqqah'.

2Kings 17:19

גם־יהודה לא שׁמר את־מצות יהוה אלהיהם וילכו בחקות ישׂראל אשׁר עשׂו׃

61 posted on 01/02/2014 1:55:17 PM PST by patlin ("Knowledge is a powerful source that is 2nd to none but God" ConstitutionallySpeaking 2011)
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To: patlin

You are broadcasting a....Jewish perspective? No. That’s the point of this whole thread and the class I posted....the Oral Torah is completely G-dly and the rabbis (ahem, the orthodox, Jewish ones) are vested with the power to decide the law.... they have G-d’s seal of approval.

Why do you care? Is your point to undermine the starting premise, that the Pentateuch and Oral Law were both given to Moses on Mt. Sinai?


62 posted on 01/02/2014 2:05:11 PM PST by Phinneous
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To: Phinneous
I care because I no longer want to speak falsehood, but simply let His truth be known. Let each decide for themselves. My point is not to undermine anything. My point is to bring truth to the table. Have you read all of the oral law? Not just the Mishna, but the whole of the BT Talmud to see what it says for itself, have you read it for yourself?

It wasn't until I read it for myself and read things written in it that I was so disgusted to the point of vomiting that I knew it was not of God.

63 posted on 01/03/2014 8:12:37 AM PST by patlin ("Knowledge is a powerful source that is 2nd to none but God" ConstitutionallySpeaking 2011)
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To: Olog-hai

Or more accurately, “The Instruction.” (book of life).


64 posted on 03/18/2014 10:59:21 AM PDT by Jack Hydrazine (Pubbies = national collectivists; Dems = international collectivists; We need a second party!)
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To: Phinneous

You are truly doing G-d’s work here at Free Republic. Thank you.


65 posted on 03/18/2014 11:00:35 AM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (The Left: speaking power to truth since Shevirat HaKelim.)
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To: SkyDancer
It’s Torah, not The Torah.

It's sometimes in the construct state (Torat HaShem, Torat Mosheh), which makes it implicitly definite in those cases.

66 posted on 03/18/2014 11:02:38 AM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (The Left: speaking power to truth since Shevirat HaKelim.)
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To: Olog-hai
For the sake of pedantry, one could translate it fully into English and call it “The Law”.

The Hebrew word for "law" is actually din. "Torah" is more accurately translated "teaching" or "instruction."

67 posted on 03/18/2014 11:03:46 AM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (The Left: speaking power to truth since Shevirat HaKelim.)
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To: Beowulf9
Honestly, I do not know what Torah is. I’ve heard of it of course, but I confess I do not actually know what it is, other than a book, I think.

In the strictest sense Genesis-Exodus-Leviticus-Numbers-Deuteronomy. In a wider sense these books plus the Oral Torah.

In a more complete sense, perhaps Torah is simply the internal Jewish word for Judaism.

68 posted on 03/18/2014 11:05:48 AM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (The Left: speaking power to truth since Shevirat HaKelim.)
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To: redleghunter
Of course Christians must know Torah. How else do we learn the perfect standard Jesus Christ (Yeshua HaMashiach) lived and taught, which reveals we are sinners and need of His spotless sacrifice.

Your belief in J*sus doesn't come from the Torah or the rest of the Hebrew Bible. It comes from the "new testament" and the assumption that its interpretation of the Hebrew Bible is authoritative.

Your belief that the "new testament" is authoritative does not come from anywhere in the Hebrew Bible. You assume it from the outset, therefore you assume from the outset that the Hebrew Bible means only what the "new testament" says it means.

69 posted on 03/18/2014 11:09:18 AM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (The Left: speaking power to truth since Shevirat HaKelim.)
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To: Zionist Conspirator

I suppose it’s like in the UK where it’s said they took them to hospital not “the hospital” or same in the US where they say “he went to school” not “the school” - but then we say it in either case.


70 posted on 03/18/2014 11:41:29 AM PDT by SkyDancer (I Believe In The Law Until It Intereferes With Justice.)
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To: Hieronymus

I don’t roll caucus! (and I don’t roll on Shabbos :)


71 posted on 03/18/2014 12:42:05 PM PDT by Phinneous
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To: patlin; jonrick46

I was pinged back into this thread today and reread you post... when you quote Acts 3:22 and write [Hebrew word] Elokim.... is that from the original Greek which distinguishes between the Hebrew words ‘YKVK’ and ‘Elokim?”

(note, and point to jonrick46, we use G-d and substitute a ‘h’ for a ‘k’ to avoid writing even a transliteration for G-d’s name(s.) The reason is that it’s the Jewish application of the commandment not to take His name in vain.


72 posted on 03/18/2014 12:49:39 PM PDT by Phinneous
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To: Zionist Conspirator

Not exactly. We are to take both the Hebrew and NT scriptures in a literal-grammatic approach. Not one interpreting the other.

I take it you are not a follower of Yeshua HaMashiach so you will disagree.


73 posted on 03/18/2014 1:42:01 PM PDT by redleghunter
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To: redleghunter
Not exactly. We are to take both the Hebrew and NT scriptures in a literal-grammatic approach. Not one interpreting the other.

You chrstians absolutely refuse to even think about this, don't you?

When the "new testament" says that J*sus "fulfilled" this or that prophecy, it is interpreting the Hebrew Bible. You have never even wondered whether it has the authority to do so because you have always just assumed that it did. If the "new testament" is in fact a fraud, then it does not have the authority to declare J*sus as the fulfillment of this or that "messianic prophecy." And if J*sus was a fraud, then he didn't have the authority to declare this or that act a "fulfillment of messianic prophecy."

Jews go by the Torah because they were given the Torah at Sinai. You don't accept the "old testament" because you received it from G-d. You accept it only on the "authority" of the "new testament." You are engaged in a logical fallacy known as "affirmation of the consequent," "proving" your argument by simply assuming it's truth (evolutionists do the same thing, but chrstians are the world champions).

But never mind. You won't even consider a word I've said because you "know" the "new testament" is divinely inspired by the same G-d Who gave the Torah. You have absolutely no reason whatsoever to assume this (you've just decided to do so), but that won't stop you.

I take it you are not a follower of Yeshua HaMashiach so you will disagree.

He's still not the messiah no matter what you call him.

74 posted on 03/18/2014 1:53:29 PM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (The Left: speaking power to truth since Shevirat HaKelim.)
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To: Zionist Conspirator; editor-surveyor; roamer_1

I will assume you have not read B’rit Chadasha. The testimony there in came in both word (Torah) and Power (miracles). Also meeting more than the eye witness testimony as evidenced in Torah. In some cases thousands at a time.

IMO, none of the above compares to the miracle a person realizes when they confess with their tongue and believe in their hearts Yeshua HaMashiach.


75 posted on 03/18/2014 2:19:30 PM PDT by redleghunter
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To: Zionist Conspirator

“Din” is related to the name “Dan”, right? That literally means to justify or vindicate; root meaning is to be straight or direct. I’ve never seen it translated as “law”.

The words most commonly translated into English as “law” out of Hebrew are “torah”, “khoq” (alternately as “statute” and “ordinance”) and “mitzvah” (alternately as “commandment”).


76 posted on 03/18/2014 2:34:53 PM PDT by Olog-hai
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To: Zionist Conspirator; redleghunter

>> “Jews go by the Torah because they were given the Torah at Sinai” <<

.
Jews also defeat that same Torah by replacing it with false oral laws to empower their own tyranny over those who foolishly trust them.

That in reality was the Pharisees’ main gripe against Yeshua; he blew their game. Their own high priest told them that Yeshua was Yehova in the flesh.
.


77 posted on 03/18/2014 7:35:33 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: Olog-hai; Zionist Conspirator

Zionist is correct, Torah is the teaching. To reduce it to just ‘law’ is to remove the love that Yeshua said was the very basis of it.


78 posted on 03/18/2014 7:38:42 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: editor-surveyor

Calling it “law” is an elevation rather than a reduction. Take note that whenever the Torah is referenced in the Gospels and the rest of the New Testament, the Greek word “nomos” (law) is used. James 1:25 calls it the “perfect law of liberty” (nomon teleios ton tes eleutherias).


79 posted on 03/18/2014 7:50:00 PM PDT by Olog-hai
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To: editor-surveyor
Zionist is correct, Torah is the teaching. To reduce it to just ‘law’ is to remove the love that Yeshua said was the very basis of it.

You people are impossible.

80 posted on 03/18/2014 8:14:42 PM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (The Left: speaking power to truth since Shevirat HaKelim.)
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