daniell1212:
I have no evidence of anything, as I said. My presumption is that he did repent before he died given he had a funeral mass. I don’t know how Trad RC’s got into this discussion. Traditional Catholics who are in communion with Rome and go to Mass with Priests of the Insitute of CHrist the King or Society of St. Peter are not in schism.
Now those who now view Bishop Fellay [I think it is or Williamson], the leader of the SSPX have formally set up a schismatic Church, which is clearly defined as an excommunicable offense.
Look I am and was not a fan of Kennedy’ politics but most of the excommunicable offenses are directed at Bishops and Priests. The Canon clearly states ‘Procured an abortion” is that the same thing as “supports liberal judges who promote abortion rights” I don’t know the answer to that as I have not seen anyone excommunicated for this. If someone haves or is involved in an abortion, the language is quite clear. Do we know Kennedy was involved in one.
Do we know if he attacked the Pope? or desecrated the Eucharist and had Black-Masses with it [a Sacrilege]. Did he apostate from the faith, i.e. leave the Church [even though he was not the stellar Catholic], did he cause Catholics to leave the Church [formal schism]. The closest thing is his views on abortion rights which one has to say is formal heresy sort of like denying the Divinity of Christ or the Resurrection. Supporting abortion rights is sinful but is it a latae sententaie offense?
There are lots of things that are sinful that don’t incur automatic excommunication. Lust, anger, greed, gossip, not going to Mass on Sunday. One is out of the Church in so much as they have sinned, but the call is to go to confession and repent, not drive people away.
I am no Canon Lawyer and neither are you [assuming you are Catholic] but Abortion was starting to be legalized in Europe going back to the 20’s in Russia, Poland, Sweeden, Mexico, Iceland, Denmark legalized it in some form in the 30’s, Japan in the late 40’s. Have we ever seen a lay Catholic excommunicated back in those days.
I know of 3 lay Catholics in Louisiana who were excommunicated when they challenged the Archbishop of New Orleans authority in public and had a standoff on the desegregation of Catholic Schools, parishes, hospitals, etc, etc. But that sort of goes to in essence, creating a schism in that those 3 were setting up a parallel Church and challenging the Bishops authority.
So I will err on the side of Mercy and presume that Teddy did in fact make a good Sacrament of COnfession before he died, with a good Act of Contrition, and that he received the Annointing of the Sick and Viaticum [His Last Eucharist] and that God’s Grace found away to rescue Ole Teddy from himself, albeit, I would conjecture Ole Teddy had or is still having a stop over in Purgatory!!! before he can enjoy the full Beatific Vision.
I am loosely referring to conservative RCs, which typically disown the liberals Rome treats as members. I will change the abbreviation to CRCs
I am and was not a fan of Kennedy’ politics but most of the excommunicable offenses are directed at Bishops and Priests.
Then that would further render as spurious the relegation of liberal RCs laity as being self excoms.
The Canon clearly states ‘Procured an abortion” is that the same thing as “supports liberal judges who promote abortion rights”
Obviously, if you legalize the killing of Jews then you are culpable for their deaths.
Did he apostate from the faith, i.e. leave the Church
According to the CRCs, yes, but in reality no, he left a former manifestation of the Roman institution, but not the modern one.
did he cause Catholics to leave the Church [formal schism].
Likewise no, because you can be a Teddy K Catholic and be a member.
Supporting abortion rights is sinful but is it a latae sententaie offense?
Yes, according to the CRCs, obviously Rome does not treat them as such. Even quite public ones.
There are lots of things that are sinful that don’t incur automatic excommunication. Lust, anger, greed, gossip, not going to Mass on Sunday.
If impenitent it may be considered such.
Have we ever seen a lay Catholic excommunicated back in those days.
Your argument is not with me, but the CRCs who disallow liberals as really being members, despite how their church treats them.
So I will err on the side of Mercy and presume that Teddy did in fact make a good Sacrament of COnfession before he died, with a good Act of Contrition
That mercy will not help him, and is erring by making a great presumption, as the evidence only says points to impenitence.
and that he received the Annointing of the Sick and Viaticum [His Last Eucharist] and that God’s Grace found away to rescue Ole Teddy from himself,
That would not save him anyway. The Annointing of the Sick in Scripture (Ja. 5) was for healing, nor as a precursor of death, and done by elders, not priests , which elders are never called, except as part of the general priesthood of all believers.
Nor was anyone ever born again and saved by taking part in the Lord's supper, but by contrite repentance and faith in the Lord Jesus to save him as a damned+destitute sinner, by the sinless shed blood of Christ.
I would conjecture Ole Teddy had or is still having a stop over in Purgatory!!! before he can enjoy the full Beatific Vision.
That is more error, as all the verses which clearly speak of a N.T. believer's postmortem condition (Luke 23:43; Acts 7:59; 1Cor. 15:52; 2 Cor 5:8; Phil. 1:23; 1 Th 4:17; 1Jn. 3:2) show it is with the Lord, in whose presence there is fulness of joy (Ps. 16:11). And the postmortem only suffering actually taught for believers is that of 1 Cor. 3, the suffering of loss of rewards (and the Lord's grievous disapproval) due to the nature of the material by which they built the church. But which a soul is saved in spite of, not because of. And yet which does not occur until the Lord's return. See more here
Moreover, while God does chastise believers as needed for sins, and works to perfect saints, this whole work is not done by postmortem suffering, or even just by suffering, but by facing the afflictions and temptation of this life. Thus the Lord Himself came down from Heaven to take on the nature of the seed of Abraham, and be made “perfect through sufferings” (Heb. 2:10), that of being “in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin,” (Hebrews 4:15) “For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted” (Hebrews 2:18).