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Locked on 12/26/2013 5:28:25 AM PST by Religion Moderator, reason:
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Posted on 12/22/2013 7:28:20 AM PST by DouglasKC
“The Christian faith has not been tried and found wanting. It has rather been found difficult and left untried.” —Chesterton
I am the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending.The story of Jesus is either the greatest event in history or the cruelest hoax. If it is a hoax, then the whole of the Christian message crumbles together with the hopes of those multitudes of lives built on his name. The apostle Paul said:
“And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty. Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up; if in fact the dead do not rise. For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen. And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins! Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable.” -1 Corinthians 15:14-19 (NKJV)
But if the story is true, then this world has been hit with extraordinary news of earth-shaking consequences. Have you taken the trouble to decide which it is?
In a matter this weighty, it is in your interest to explore the truth or falsity of Christ's claims. Amazingly however, many people who don't believe have never bothered to explore the evidence in support of Jesus,[1] but to the contrary, often run away from it. At the same time, many Christians themselves are not sure, at bottom, whether the claims of their faith are solid. Is the Christian claim a hoax? Is it just wishful thinking? Or is it actually true?
(Excerpt) Read more at christiananswers.net ...
Agreed!
” And you’ve got nothing better to do then to tear me down and insinuate that I don’t love my Lord?”
You love the UCG’s Lord, I’m sure, but you’re not a Trinitarian. It’s nothing personal by the way. Just a fact.
More information on the United Church of God and their peculiar views on the Godhead and other matters:
“Founder: It was founded “by Bob Dick and David Hulme, in Arcadia, CA;”1 offshoot of Herbert W. Armstrong and was formed in May of 1995.
Headquarters: Milford, Ohio
Membership: unknown
Origins: The United Church of God is an offshoot of the Worldwide Church of God. They claim to trace their origins back to the “Church that Jesus founded in the early first century.”2 How this is done is not explained.
Practices: Worship on Saturday
Analysis: The United Church of God is a non-Christian cult that denies the Trinity, the true divinity of Christ, and requires both baptism and obedience to the commandments to be saved. It teaches that there is a “God family” of which we can become members through keeping the Law. Jesus is one of two divine beings, the Father being the other. The Holy Spirit is a force, a power, and is not the 3rd person of the Trinity, and it is received only through the laying on of hands by their church members. It also teaches that their members are obligated to keep the Sabbath and must observe seven festivals. They cannot eat unclean meat. This is a false religious system that teaches a false God, false Christ, and false gospel. Stay away from it.
Other Teachings:
They teach that the wicked, or unsaved, are not alive in hell but are annihilated. Baptism is by immersion. The Bible is inspired and inerrant. They are pre-millennial and maintain that Satan is a fallen, evil angel. Christians are not to go to war and should refuse being drafted.
Quotes
God: God consists of two different beings, Father and Son, in a ‘family.’
“...the one God is a family, presently consisting of God the Father and God the Son, Jesus Christ. And God is in the process of adding to the divine family multitudes of others - eventually all human beings who are willing and who faithfully choose to follow God’s way...the Father and Jesus Christ are both God...The real message in these pronouncements is that there is no other God apart from the true God’that is, outside the God family now consisting of two divine Beings, the Father and the Son. In short, the God family alone is God...the true God means the one God family to which others will yet be added.”3
Holy Spirit: The UCOG denies the personhood of the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit is God’s divine power. “...the Holy Spirit is the very nature, presence and expression of God’s power actively working in His servants...the very essence and life force through which the Father begets human beings as His spiritual children...The Holy Spirit is spoken of in many ways that demonstrate that it is not a divine person.”4
The Holy Spirit is received by the laying on of hands, after being water baptized by immersion.5
Jesus
“Jesus is one of two divine beings”6
Jesus is sinless, the creator of all humanity, who was raised from the dead, (physical resurrection is not explained).
Jesus will return
Law: “The Ten Commandments are the 10 points of God’s law of love. We believe that breaking any one point of the law brings upon a person the penalty of sin. We believe that this fundamental spiritual law reveals the only way to true life and the only possible way of happiness, peace and joy.”7
Man
Man is fallen but can become “partakers of the divine nature.” This means that they can be added to the God Family.
After death, you cease to exist but are resurrected for judgment. “The soul ( nephesh ) is not immortal, because it dies...what happens to the spiritual essence that separates man from animal? Does it continue as a conscious, immortal soul independent of the physical body? Certainly not!”8
“We believe that at the return of Jesus Christ a resurrection to spirit life will take place for all who have been God’s faithful servants.”9
Sabbath: Saturday, the seventh day of the week, is the proper day to worship God.
Salvation - Salvation is through Jesus only, but you must be baptized to be saved. Salvation can be lost.
You must acknowledge your sin, that your sin condemns you, and that you need forgiveness in Jesus. The person must repent and be baptized. You “...must forsake the sinful ways that brought the death penalty upon us and made Jesus’ sacrifice necessary in the first place. We must undergo a life-transforming change of heart and direction, a process the Bible calls repentance....When you are baptized, God forgives your past sins and clears your record...After our baptism, Christ’s ministers are to place their hands on us and pray for the gift of God’s Spirit for us. It is at this point that God gives His Spirit to a repentant, baptized person.”10
“After baptism and our receiving of God’s Spirit, we are justified. That is, we become righteous in God’s sight”11
“If we stumble and sin after baptism, we must ask God’s forgiveness and return to Him so that our state of forgiveness is not lost by our return to our old sinful way of life...If a Christian at some time during his life, after committing to serve God, turns away and renounces Jesus and God’s way in word or action, he will lose his salvation.”12
The saved don’t go to heaven but will live on earth with Jesus.
“God will offer salvation all who have lived, including those of non-Christian religions, in a time described in Revelation 22: 5, 11-13 . This is a period known as the Great White Throne Judgment when God will offer salvation, through Christ, to those denied such opportunity in their life.”13
“We believe God’s purpose for mankind is to prepare those whom He calls, and who elect through a life of overcoming sin, developing righteous character and growing in grace and knowledge, to possess God’s Kingdom and become kings and priests reigning with Christ at His return.”14
“Such individuals are justified, pardoned from the penalty of sin and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, which literally abides within them and supplies the divine love that alone can fulfill the law and produce righteousness.”15
Footnotes at link:
From the Catholic EWTN list of Cults:
“Worldwide Church of God - Leader: Hurbert W. Armstrong
. Jesus is a part of the godhead (God is a family) and men can become like Jesus and part of the God family - Sons of God. They do not believe in a closed godhead (TRINITY). The Holy Spirit is not considered a person, but the Father and the Son work through it. (Derivate cult - International Church of God. Leader: Son of Herbert, George, was disowned by his father and started this group that believes the same, but claims that the Worldwide Church lost its authority when Herbert divorced his wife.)”
https://www.ewtn.com/library/NEWAGE/CULTCAT.TXT
From my copy of Walter Martin’s “Kingdom of the Cults”:
“Most of the splinter cults of Armstrongism retain the name ‘Church of God’ somewhere in their title. They mix legalism, including strict Sabbatarianism, with a variety of Armstrong’s leading doctrinces. Two other noteworthy groups among these are the Global Church of God, located in San Diego, California, and the United Church of God in Arcadia, California. The former has a television following on two superstations covering much of the United States, while the latter publishes The Good News magazine and covers thirty television stations with programming.” (Walter Martin, The Kingdom of the Cults, Ed. Hank Hanegraaff. Pg. 472)
Wow....you are a sad man.
“Wow....you are a sad man.”
My links do make Mormons/JWs and other groups sad, I suppose.
I've asked you repeatedly to quit following me around a spamming the threads I'm on. Please stop.
I’m not “following” anyone around. It’s more of a coincidence that you’ve been fighting with me lately, since you’ve been launching a bunch of threads. I’m busy working on the Mormons too in two other threads as well.
Please stop pinging me. I want nothing to do with you. You're only interested in picking fights and tearing down people.
**Jesus also prayed.**
And I like how he started into that prayer in John 17:3...”And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the ONLY true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.”
Jesus Christ is God because ALL the fulness of the ONLY God dwells in him. (Col. 1:19; 2:9)
John 14:6-10 “I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye KNOW him. and have SEEN him.......he that hath SEEN me hath SEEN the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the WORDS that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that DWELLETH IN ME, he doeth the works.”
It was not Always Catholic Belief:
Who is Jesus?
It is an important question. And what is the truth? At some point every Christian or aspiring Christian needs to answer this question for himself. Maybe you think it doesn’t matter? Read on.
The teaching of most Protestant Churches, the Roman Catholic Church, and the Eastern Orthodox Church is that Jesus is God, one aspect of the Trinity. Albeit, there is a slightly nuanced difference with the Eastern Church in that they believe the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father (or so I am told). However, there are groups, most notably the Mormons and the Jehovah’s Witnesses who believe that Jesus is the Son of God but not God. Generally, those groups are referred to as “cults” by Trinitarians. Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses are not the only non-trinitarian groups. Modern nontrinitarian groups or denominations include Christadelphians, Christian Scientists, Dawn Bible Students, Friends General Conference, Iglesia ni Cristo, La Luz del Mundo, Living Church of God, Oneness Pentecostals, Unitarian Universalist Christians and the United Church of God to name a few.
My own searching over the years has caused me to question and wonder about this and investigate the matter (and I do not belong to any of the above groups).
In the beginning of my own investigation into Christianity, I came across “tracts” that referred to Jesus as a “God Man”. I believe they were Roman Catholic tracts. Frankly, I was bothered by the idea of a man being God. Intuitively bothered. It didn’t sit well with me.
At that particular time, I attended a Victory Outreach Church briefly. I was bothered enough by the idea that I went to one of Senior Pastor’s with the question, “Is Jesus God?” I don’t recall the exact conversation but I did bring up many of the verses where Jesus is called the Son of God. I can’t recall the exact scriptures now (30 years later) but I do recall the gist of the conversation. The minister told me he had gone to the “Greek” to get his position. It was like pulling rank on an ignorant peasant. When I persisted in my questions, I was met with almost seeming hostility and told, “This Church believes in the Trinity!” The counseling session was abruptly ended.
I was bothered enough that I consulted another minister at another Church. I was told that Jesus was God’s messenger. It was told me with a certainty, and, frankly, I felt a certain inner relief.
Over the years, I have learned a few things about Christianity and the Trinity which I would like to share with you. Things I didn’t understand when the first minister pulled rank on me by saying he had gone to the “Greek”.
First of all, it has not always been the accepted teaching of the established Christian Church that Jesus is God, something that many Christians do not realize. It was only in the 325 A.D. at the Council of Nicea that it became accepted Church Doctrine. The Nicean Creed was voted in and is repeated in Catholic Churches at Mass to this day. But repetition by itself does not make it true.
At the time of the Council of Nicea, there was a raging controversy between those who believed that Jesus was God and those that believed Jesus was less than the Father. The latter were called Arians. An honest person has to admit it was nearly three centuries after the death of Jesus that the “official” position of the Church became that Jesus is God. That is something that most Christians don’t know today. Three centuries is a long time, longer even than the length of modern day America. It was only after all the early followers of Jesus had died out that the Doctrine of the Trinity became accepted.
And even after the Council of Nicea voted that Jesus is God, there were subsequent Church Councils that resulted in a decision to the contrary when there was a pro-Arian Roman Emperor .It is no exaggeration to say the success or failure of the Trinitarian idea much depended on what the Roman Emperor at the time believed.
Trinitarianism was finally established by law when the Emperor Theodosius issued a decree which said ,” Heretics are to be driven from cities, villages, and communities. They are not able to hold public meetings or secret gatherings.”
What could not be enforced by Church Councils was enforced by the power of the Roman state.
So what does scripture have to say about all this?
Peter’s Confession of Christ
The book of Matthew recounts the Apostle Peter’s Confession of Christ:
Reading the Text
13 When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?”
14 They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
15 “But what about you,” He asked; “Who do you say I am?”
16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God.”
17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in Heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”
20 Then He warned His disciples not to tell anyone that He was the Christ.
*******************************
There can be no doubt Peter said Jesus is the Son of God and that Jesus said he is right! Jesus is also saying “Upon this rock (Upon this type of man-someone who realizes the truth for himself)—he will build his Church”.
John 1:1
The scripture John 1:1 is the one most commonly used to “prove” that Jesus is God:
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God , and the Word was God” .
Does that settle the matter?
No. Wikipedia has this to say regarding John 1:1 : The proper rendering into English from the original Koine Greek text continues to be a source of vigorous debate among Bible translators.
For example:
1970, 1989 The Revised English Bible reads: “...and what God was, the Word was”
You can read the entire Wikipedia article if you wish.
The point I am trying to make is that not all translations say that Jesus is God concerning John 1:1.
To base your entire Christian belief, theology, and Salvation on one verse would be a grave error. Of course, there may be some of you who are thinking “But Trinitarian Theology is the historical doctrine of the Christian Church.”
Well, not exactly. It has been the Doctrine of the Church only since 325 A.D. Almost 300 years elapsed before it became creed or dogma that Jesus is God. 300 years is a long time. America has not even been in existence 300 years.
One highly relevant scripture in John is cited below. It says what the purpose of
the book of John is:
John 20:30-31
“30And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples,
which are not written in this book: 31 But these are written, that you might
believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you might
have life through his name. “
It is an internal contradiction within the Book of John to use it to “prove” that Jesus is God, since the book clearly states that is not its purpose. Those that use the Book of John to “prove” Jesus is God are not using it for its intended purpose. Something to reflect upon.
Paul’s Conversion on the road to Damascus
Let us turn briefly to the Apostle Paul and his conversion on the road to Damascus, and what the Scripture has to say regarding it. As you may recall, Paul had a mystical encounter with Jesus Christ on the road to Damascus and was blind for three days. The Disciple Ananais went to the stricken Paul and laid hands on him. Paul received his sight and was baptized with the Spirit.
“And when he had received meat, he was strengthened. Then was Saul (Paul) certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus. And straightway he preached Christ in the Synagogues, that he is the Son of God.”
There can be no doubt that after his conversion that Scripture says Paul preached that Jesus is the Son of God!
It was not Always Catholic Belief:
Who is Jesus?
It is an important question. And what is the truth? At some point every Christian or aspiring Christian needs to answer this question for himself. Maybe you think it doesn’t matter? Read on.
The teaching of most Protestant Churches, the Roman Catholic Church, and the Eastern Orthodox Church is that Jesus is God, one aspect of the Trinity. Albeit, there is a slightly nuanced difference with the Eastern Church in that they believe the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father (or so I am told). However, there are groups, most notably the Mormons and the Jehovah’s Witnesses who believe that Jesus is the Son of God but not God. Generally, those groups are referred to as “cults” by Trinitarians. Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses are not the only non-trinitarian groups. Modern nontrinitarian groups or denominations include Christadelphians, Christian Scientists, Dawn Bible Students, Friends General Conference, Iglesia ni Cristo, La Luz del Mundo, Living Church of God, Oneness Pentecostals, Unitarian Universalist Christians and the United Church of God to name a few.
My own searching over the years has caused me to question and wonder about this and investigate the matter (and I do not belong to any of the above groups).
In the beginning of my own investigation into Christianity, I came across “tracts” that referred to Jesus as a “God Man”. I believe they were Roman Catholic tracts. Frankly, I was bothered by the idea of a man being God. Intuitively bothered. It didn’t sit well with me.
At that particular time, I attended a Victory Outreach Church briefly. I was bothered enough by the idea that I went to one of Senior Pastor’s with the question, “Is Jesus God?” I don’t recall the exact conversation but I did bring up many of the verses where Jesus is called the Son of God. I can’t recall the exact scriptures now (30 years later) but I do recall the gist of the conversation. The minister told me he had gone to the “Greek” to get his position. It was like pulling rank on an ignorant peasant. When I persisted in my questions, I was met with almost seeming hostility and told, “This Church believes in the Trinity!” The counseling session was abruptly ended.
I was bothered enough that I consulted another minister at another Church. I was told that Jesus was God’s messenger. It was told me with a certainty, and, frankly, I felt a certain inner relief.
Over the years, I have learned a few things about Christianity and the Trinity which I would like to share with you. Things I didn’t understand when the first minister pulled rank on me by saying he had gone to the “Greek”.
First of all, it has not always been the accepted teaching of the established Christian Church that Jesus is God, something that many Christians do not realize. It was only in the 325 A.D. at the Council of Nicea that it became accepted Church Doctrine. The Nicean Creed was voted in and is repeated in Catholic Churches at Mass to this day. But repetition by itself does not make it true.
At the time of the Council of Nicea, there was a raging controversy between those who believed that Jesus was God and those that believed Jesus was less than the Father. The latter were called Arians. An honest person has to admit it was nearly three centuries after the death of Jesus that the “official” position of the Church became that Jesus is God. That is something that most Christians don’t know today. Three centuries is a long time, longer even than the length of modern day America. It was only after all the early followers of Jesus had died out that the Doctrine of the Trinity became accepted.
And even after the Council of Nicea voted that Jesus is God, there were subsequent Church Councils that resulted in a decision to the contrary when there was a pro-Arian Roman Emperor .It is no exaggeration to say the success or failure of the Trinitarian idea much depended on what the Roman Emperor at the time believed.
Trinitarianism was finally established by law when the Emperor Theodosius issued a decree which said ,” Heretics are to be driven from cities, villages, and communities. They are not able to hold public meetings or secret gatherings.”
What could not be enforced by Church Councils was enforced by the power of the Roman state.
So what does scripture have to say about all this?
Peter’s Confession of Christ
The book of Matthew recounts the Apostle Peter’s Confession of Christ:
Reading the Text
13 When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?”
14 They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
15 “But what about you,” He asked; “Who do you say I am?”
16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God.”
17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in Heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”
20 Then He warned His disciples not to tell anyone that He was the Christ.
*******************************
There can be no doubt Peter said Jesus is the Son of God and that Jesus said he is right! Jesus is also saying “Upon this rock (Upon this type of man-someone who realizes the truth for himself)—he will build his Church”.
John 1:1
The scripture John 1:1 is the one most commonly used to “prove” that Jesus is God:
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God , and the Word was God” .
Does that settle the matter?
No. Wikipedia has this to say regarding John 1:1 : The proper rendering into English from the original Koine Greek text continues to be a source of vigorous debate among Bible translators.
For example:
1970, 1989 The Revised English Bible reads: “...and what God was, the Word was”
You can read the entire Wikipedia article if you wish.
The point I am trying to make is that not all translations say that Jesus is God concerning John 1:1.
To base your entire Christian belief, theology, and Salvation on one verse would be a grave error. Of course, there may be some of you who are thinking “But Trinitarian Theology is the historical doctrine of the Christian Church.”
Well, not exactly. It has been the Doctrine of the Church only since 325 A.D. Almost 300 years elapsed before it became creed or dogma that Jesus is God. 300 years is a long time. America has not even been in existence 300 years.
One highly relevant scripture in John is cited below. It says what the purpose of
the book of John is:
John 20:30-31
“30And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples,
which are not written in this book: 31 But these are written, that you might
believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you might
have life through his name. “
It is an internal contradiction within the Book of John to use it to “prove” that Jesus is God, since the book clearly states that is not its purpose. Those that use the Book of John to “prove” Jesus is God are not using it for its intended purpose. Something to reflect upon.
Paul’s Conversion on the road to Damascus
Let us turn briefly to the Apostle Paul and his conversion on the road to Damascus, and what the Scripture has to say regarding it. As you may recall, Paul had a mystical encounter with Jesus Christ on the road to Damascus and was blind for three days. The Disciple Ananais went to the stricken Paul and laid hands on him. Paul received his sight and was baptized with the Spirit.
“And when he had received meat, he was strengthened. Then was Saul (Paul) certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus. And straightway he preached Christ in the Synagogues, that he is the Son of God.”
There can be no doubt that after his conversion that Scripture says Paul preached that Jesus is the Son of God!
It’s Christmas time! That is when Saint Nicholas comes and punches out the Arians, like he did at Nicea.
Another point.
In general,Trinitarians are most unloving towards those that
do not believe that Jesus is God, but that He is the Messiah and the Savior.
Not all, of course,but many. If you are going to disagree, at least try and do it in a loving spirit.
God will answer the sincere prayer of those who want to know the Truth. If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God.
***It was not Always Catholic Belief:***
Several years back on FR, there was a report of an ancient Christian Church found with mosaic pattern that declared the church was...”DEDICATED TO THE GOD JESUS”. It dated from around 250 AD.
That question was not directed to you...more of a rhetorical question for the atheists
Pardon me,...I seem to be missing a rib.
“First of all, it has not always been the accepted teaching of the established Christian Church that Jesus is God, something that many Christians do not realize. It was only in the 325 A.D. at the Council of Nicea that it became accepted Church Doctrine.”
An absurd (though typical of the cults) argument for two reasons. The first is that the scripture is far older than 325AD, and the early Church only defended these teachings on the basis of their clear existence within the scripture, not based on any mere fancy. Nor did they support it based on it being a new doctrine, but rather as an old one they had been defending for a very long time.
Note Augustine and the way he speaks of the matter:
“For the notice of the Trinity is here [in Scripture] conveyed to us plainly and without leaving room for doubt or hesitation. For the Lord Christ Himself coming in the form of a servant to John, is doubtlessly the Son: for it cannot be said that it was the Father, or the Holy Spirit. ‘Jesus,’ it is said, ‘cometh;’ that is, the Son of God. And who hath any doubt about the Dove? or who saith, ‘What is the Dove?’ when the Gospel itself most plainly testifieth, ‘The Holy Spirit descended upon Him in the form of a dove.’ And in like manner as to that voice there can be no doubt that it is the Father’s, when He saith, ‘Thou art My Son.’ Thus then we have the Trinity distinguished.” (Sermons on Selected Lessons of the New Testament, 2:1)
Secondly, the idea that it does not have a long pedigree is false, since the belief that Jesus is God, for example, has always been stated. Take for instance the writings of these Christians ranging from before the end of the 1st century and into the 2nd and 3rd centuries, long before Nicea:
“Ignatius, who is also called Theophorus, to the Church which is at Ephesus, in Asia, deservedly most happy, being blessed in the greatness and fullness of God the Father, and predestinated before the beginning of time, that it should be always for an enduring and unchangeable glory, being united and elected through the true passion by the will of the Father, and Jesus Christ, our God: Abundant happiness through Jesus Christ, and His undefiled grace.” (Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Ephesians, Ch. 0)
Tertullian
“As if in this way also one were not All, in that All are of One, by unity (that is) of substance; while the mystery of the dispensation is still guarded, which distributes the Unity into a Trinity, placing in their order the three Persons — the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost: three, however, not in condition, but in degree; not in substance, but in form; not in power, but in aspect; yet of one substance, and of one condition, and of one power, inasmuch as He is one God, from whom these degrees and forms and aspects are reckoned, under the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.” (Against Praxeas, by Tertullian)
“There is one Physician who is possessed both of flesh and spirit; both made and not made; God existing in flesh; true life in death; both of Mary and of God; first passible and then impassible, even Jesus Christ our Lord.” (Letter to the Ephesians, ch. 7)
Another example:
“...God Himself appearing in the form of a man, for the renewal of eternal life.”( Epistle of Ignatius to the Ephesians 4:13)
Again
“Continue inseparable from Jesus Christ our God.”( Epistle of Ignatius to the Trallians 2:4)
More, from other folks:
Justin Martyr ( 140 A.D.) “the word of wisdom, who is himself God begotten of the Father of all things, and word, and wisdom, and power, and the glory of the begetter, will bear evidence to me”.(Dialogue with Tropho Ch.61)
“God speaks in the creation of man with the very same design, in the following words: ‘Let us make man after our image and likeness’ . . . I shall quote again the words narrated by Moses himself, from which we can indisputably learn that [God] conversed with someone numerically distinct from himself and also a rational being. . . . But this Offspring who was truly brought forth from the Father, was with the Father before all the creatures, and the Father communed with him” (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 62).
“For Christ is King, and Priest, and God and Lord...”(Dialogue With Trypho, 34)
“...He preexisted as the Son of theCreator of things, being God, and that He was born a man by the Virgin.” (Dialogue With Trypho, 48 )
“We will prove that we worship him reasonably; for we have learned that he is the Son of the true God Himself, that he holds a second place, and the Spirit of prophecy a third. For this they accuse us of madness, saying that we attribute to a crucified man a place second to the unchangeable and eternal God, the Creator of all things; but they are ignorant of the Mystery which lies therein” (First Apology 13:5-6).
Polycarp (70-160). Bishop of Smyrna.A disciple of John the Apostle. “O Lord God almighty...I bless you and glorify you through the eternal and heavenly high priest Jesus Christ, your beloved Son, through whom be glory to you, with Him and the Holy Spirit, both now and forever”
“Now may the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the eternal High Priest Himself, the God Jesus Christ, build you up in the faith...”( The Epistle of Polycarp to the Church at Philippi, 12
Iranaeus Iranaeus (120-202) “In order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King...”(Irenaeus Against Heresies, 1.10.1)
180 A.D. “But he Jesus is himself in his own right, beyond all men who ever lived, God, Lord, and king eternal, and the incarnate word, proclaimed by all the prophets, the apostles …The Scriptures would not have borne witness to these things concerning Him, if, like everyone else, He were mere man.” (Against Heresies 3:19.1-2)
“For with Him were always present the Word and Wisdom, the Son and the Spirit, by whom and in whom, freely and spontaneously, He made all things, to whom also He speaks, saying, ‘Let us make man after our image and likeness’”.( Against Heresies, 4:10)
So, if you expect us to believe that Christians from the very beginning did not believe the scripture’s clear teachings on the deity of Christ, you will have to try a lot harder than this.
“The point I am trying to make is that not all translations say that Jesus is God concerning John 1:1.
To base your entire Christian belief, theology, and Salvation on one verse would be a grave error.”
You didn’t actually provide a link to support your assertion. So, as of yet, you have not actually made an argument against John 1:1. Nor is it the only text used to prove the deity of Christ, though it is one of my favorite ones.
For other examples, here is Christ speaking of Himself in Revelation.
Rev_1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
Rev_1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
Rev_1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Compare with God speaking in the Old Testament:
Isa_48:12 Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.
Isa_44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
I’ll also add that the concept of there being more than one Almighty is an absurd one. If Christ is almighty, but is not God, or if there is more than one God, then one cannot be “almighty,” since you’re not all powerful over the other all powerful individual.
From the Catholic EWTN list of Cults:
“Worldwide Church of God - Leader: Hurbert W. Armstrong
Jesus is a part of the godhead (God is a family) and men can become like Jesus and part of the God family - Sons of God.
They do not believe in a closed godhead (TRINITY). The Holy Spirit is not considered a person, but the Father and the Son work through it.
Derivate cult - International Church of God. Leader: Son of Herbert, George, was disowned by his father and started this group that believes the same, but claims that the Worldwide Church lost its authority when Herbert divorced his wife.)”
https://www.ewtn.com/library/NEWAGE/CULTCAT.TXT
Credo in Deum Patrem omnipotentem;
Creatorem caeli et terrae.
Et in Jesum Christum,
Filium eius unicum, Dominum nostrum;
qui conceptus est
de Spiritu Sancto,
natus ex Maria virgine;
passus sub Pontio Pilato,
crucifixus, mortuus, et sepultus;
descendit ad inferos;
tertia die resurrexit a mortuis;
ascendit ad caelos;
sedet ad dexteram Dei Patris omnipotentis;
inde venturus est
iudicare vivos et mortuos.
Credo in Spiritum Sanctum;
sanctam ecclesiam catholicam;
sanctorum communionem;
remissionem peccatorum;
carnis resurrectionem;
vitam aeternam. Amen.
In English:
I believe in God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.
I believe in Jesus Christ,
his only Son, our Lord.
He was conceived
by the power of the Holy Spirit,
and born of the Virgin Mary,
He suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried;
He descended into hell.
On the third day he rose again;
he ascended into heaven,
he is seated at the right hand of the Father,
he will come again
to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy Catholic church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting. Amen
Pssst...Herbert Armstrong has been dead for almost 30 years and was dead for a decade before UCG started. Just thought you should update your propaganda... :-)
Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness...
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
I and [my] Father are one.
Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech.
And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth,
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature
Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here [am] I; send me. And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
Thanks for the scriptures. Proves it beyond a shadow of a doubt...
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