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To: dartuser

Posting assertions without proof is bush league.

As I peruse my posts on this thread, I do not understand why you would make that statement in a post to me.

Also, sometimes I don’t quote a particular scripture because I assume I am dealing with folks who are fairly familiar with the bible. In the age of google, biblegateway, blueletterbible and, most importantly, your own personal memory of the Word, it is not really necessary until the heat really gets turned on. At which point I’ll spam ya. :-D

Meanwhile, regarding the subject at hand, I’ll not provide a passage, but a discussion on the subject from here:
http://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d050101.htm

“In the Old Testament the word that is predominantly used for “age” is many times translated as “forever” or “everlasting” when they really should not do so because if you see some of the usages of this word in the Old Testament, it could not possibly be “forever.” In no way could it be that way even when it refers to God. The word does not necessarily mean that at all when it refers to Him in the sense of perpetuity, or forever, or in an ad infinitum sense.

The word in the Old Testament is olam, as we would give it in English characters. This word olam is used almost 500 times in the Old Testament. If you would get a concordance like Wigram’s The Englishman’s Hebrew and Chaldee Concordance of the Old Testament 5 on sale in most religious bookstores today. Look under “forever” and it will tell you that the Hebrew olam is mainly the one that is used in the Old Testament. Then you go to that word olam and you look up all the usages found in the King James Version. What you will find is that it is translated “forever” (about 250 times), sometimes “from everlasting to everlasting,” sometimes “forever and ever” (24 times) and just “everlasting” alone it is translated 60 times.

But it is translated in other contexts very differently. These other contexts show clearly that the word cannot always be used as “forever” which means no termination whatsoever. This is because two times it is translated “of ancient times,” or “of old times,” sometimes “of old.” Sometimes it is translated just simply “old,” or “ancient, “anymore,” “world,” “continuance,” “lasting,” “long time,” “anytime.” Sometimes it is translated simply as “long” and in others it refers in most interesting ways to lengths of time which have various duration of days or years to them.”

After this the article goes on to quote Jonah 2:5–10, where the word olam is used and translated “for ever”. There are lots more at the link.

Bottom line, most Christians in the US get their bible in English. The translation is not perfect. My relationship with my Creator does not depend on the bible, but the bible greatly augments and amplifies it. When a passage seems to contradict the personality of God as I know Him or otherwise described in the bible, I scrutinize the actual greek or hebrew words that were translated into the English words I am reading to see if there may be an error. But the bottom line is that there is scant evidence in the bible to support eternal suffering while the evidence to support eternal annihilation is legion.

BTW, I HATE that the KJV mistranslates the word for “room” or dwelling place to “mansion”. It is peppered throughout the hymnal we use. Grrrr!


132 posted on 12/17/2013 7:15:52 AM PST by cuban leaf
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To: cuban leaf
In the Old Testament the word that is predominantly used for “age” is many times translated as “forever” or “everlasting” when they really should not do so because if you see some of the usages of this word in the Old Testament, it could not possibly be “forever.”

Fine ... that is part of lexical studies ... but when you insist that forever in one context must mean a short time because it could mean short time ... that is where you are performing exegesis ... you are reading into the text that what you what to see instead of what is plainly there.

Look, it doesn't matter to me whether people believe that the ungodly will be poofed ... it is the reason presented. It demonstrates a fundamental error in Biblical understanding of theology proper. It is idolatry.

When confronted with a new theological position (and yes this is relatively new) ... I always ask myself "What theological problem is this new teaching trying to solve?"

In this case I can confidently say there is no theological problem ... there is the false assumption that God, since He is a god of love, would never torture His creations for all eternity.

So as a natural consequence, you must believe that Satan and his angels will be destroyed as well, that they will never endure eternal punishment either. Would you agree?

134 posted on 12/17/2013 7:45:45 AM PST by dartuser
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To: cuban leaf
Following your exegesis one would have to conclude that God’s covenants aren’t “forever” also. The attempts to fit scripture into a preconceived or man made theory is dangerous at best. I can just see Satan saying “did God really say?” Satan can surely point out that when God said “forever” He really didn’t mean forever forever. He simply meant for a while for ever. After all, looky here at this passage in Jonah. (snicker) You can clearly see that “forever” only meant 3 days!

Now, was Jonah really saying he was in there “forever” or did forever refer to something other than the time he was there? The New Living Translation puts it this way “I sank down to the very roots of the mountains. I was imprisoned in the earth, whose gates lock shut forever. But you, O LORD my God, snatched me from the jaws of death!” That translation doesn’t specify that Jonah thought he was there forever. Context is everything isn’t it.

There is a different word used however in the Greek text of Revelation isn’t there. Now if you want to try to convince us that Jesus actually promised us something less than “everlasting life” then have at it.

156 posted on 12/17/2013 11:11:46 AM PST by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ)
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