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To: redleghunter; daniel1212; CynicalBear; Iscool
Luke 24. Yes it says that Christ would suffer and rise again from the dead the third day. And that REPENTANCE for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, BEGINNING FROM JERUSALEM.

Not only does this NOT say that CHRIST WOULD DIE FOR OUR SINS, it also DOES SAY THIS: REPENTANCE would be the basis for FORGIVENESS OF SINS. NOT THE BLOOD OF CHRIST.

In order to get the Gospel of the Grace of God by this, you would be FORCED to READ INTO, SPECULATE, what it SHOULD SAY. NOT WHAT IT DOES SAY. Do you want to speculate on every single Scripture you give, or do you want to actually READ what is WRITTEN? God wrote it, not me.

As far as your research is going, you would be better served to research God's Word, rightly divided, than man's writings.

God has SPOKEN to us and His words are recorded in a book HE has preserved for us. Through studying His book we can KNOW the truth about His plan and purpose for creation.

But we must study it GOD'S WAY. Has God GIVEN us a way He wants us to study His Word?

2 Tim. 2:15: "STUDY to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."

Since God through the APostle Paul TELLS us to "rightly divide" His word, it would be appropriate to allow God through Paul to tell us how this should be done. Don't you think? Because if we don't, SPECULATION is all we will have. And we WILL be ashamed as workmen for Him. He doesn't tell us to read the opinions of other men, He doesn't tell us we cannot know, He gives us a clear concise way to recognize the divisions and distinctions that HE HIMSELF has placed there.

223 posted on 11/25/2013 11:55:21 AM PST by smvoice (HELP! I'm trapped inside this body and I can't get out!)
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To: smvoice; daniel1212; CynicalBear; Iscool
Not only does this NOT say that CHRIST WOULD DIE FOR OUR SINS, it also DOES SAY THIS: REPENTANCE would be the basis for FORGIVENESS OF SINS. NOT THE BLOOD OF CHRIST.

Words and Actions are given as evidence in all Scriptures.

Luke 24:

“Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise again from the dead the third day, 47 and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem. 48 You are witnesses of these things.

I posted this again, because I highlighted a very important point. The disciples were witnesses to the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. They were witnesses to His shed Blood, the pierced hands and feet and pierced side where the spear cut Him. They and all the Jews preached the Gospel on Pentecost and beyond knew that without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins as we see in Hebrews 9:

18 Therefore even the first covenant was not inaugurated without blood. 19 For when every commandment had been spoken by Moses to all the people according to the Law, he took the blood of the calves and the goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, 20 saying, “This is the blood of the covenant which God commanded you.” 21 And in the same way he sprinkled both the tabernacle and all the vessels of the ministry with the blood. 22 And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

Therefore, when Peter shouts out in Acts 2 the following:

22 “Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know— 23 this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death. 24 But God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power.

Everyone in attendance, who were Jews, fully understood Blood was shed for the remission of sins. They knew what sacrifice was about, they knew there had to blood, they knew that when people were executed by crucifixion there was blood shedding. What many of them did not probably understand was the resurrection. I will note Peter spent a lot of words explaining that from the scriptures.

So the Blood of Christ was presented in Acts 2 and Acts 3. In Acts 3 Peter makes a plea for those assembled to hear from the prophets:

“And now, brethren, I know that you acted in ignorance, just as your rulers did also. 18 But the things which God announced beforehand by the mouth of all the prophets, that His Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled.

And of course we know what Peter was referring to here; and we know the assembled Jews knew what Peter was referring to here as well. It is the following, which portrays the shedding of Blood from the Suffering Servant:

Isaiah 53:

Who has believed our message? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed? 2 For He grew up before Him like a tender shoot, And like a root out of parched ground; He has no stately form or majesty That we should look upon Him, Nor appearance that we should be attracted to Him. 3 He was despised and forsaken of men, A man of sorrows and acquainted with grief; And like one from whom men hide their face He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.

4 Surely our griefs He Himself bore, And our sorrows He carried; Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken, Smitten of God, and afflicted. 5 But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, And by His scourging we are healed. 6 All of us like sheep have gone astray, Each of us has turned to his own way; But the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all To fall on Him.

7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted, Yet He did not open His mouth; Like a lamb that is led to slaughter, And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers, So He did not open His mouth. 8 By oppression and judgment He was taken away; And as for His generation, who considered That He was cut off out of the land of the living For the transgression of my people, to whom the stroke was due? 9 His grave was assigned with wicked men, Yet He was with a rich man in His death, Because He had done no violence, Nor was there any deceit in His mouth.

10 But the Lord was pleased To crush Him, putting Him to grief; If He would render Himself as a guilt offering, He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days, And the good pleasure of the Lord will prosper in His hand. 11 As a result of the anguish of His soul, He will see it and be satisfied; By His knowledge the Righteous One, My Servant, will justify the many, As He will bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great, And He will divide the booty with the strong; Because He poured out Himself to death, And was numbered with the transgressors; Yet He Himself bore the sin of many, And interceded for the transgressors.

228 posted on 11/25/2013 12:57:00 PM PST by redleghunter
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To: smvoice; daniel1212; CynicalBear; Iscool
Since God through the APostle Paul TELLS us to "rightly divide" His word, it would be appropriate to allow God through Paul to tell us how this should be done. Don't you think? Because if we don't, SPECULATION is all we will have. And we WILL be ashamed as workmen for Him. He doesn't tell us to read the opinions of other men, He doesn't tell us we cannot know, He gives us a clear concise way to recognize the divisions and distinctions that HE HIMSELF has placed there.

I think it is speculation to present "rightly dividing the word" to mean there were two gospel messages for followers of Jesus Christ. There is just no evidence for that as many have pointed out. Acts 2 and 3 Peter clearly has a Jewish audience. He uses what we call the OT to prove Jesus is Messiah and Lord. He clearly makes the appeal in Acts 3 to listen to Isaiah 53 and the suffering servant. We see in Luke 24 Jesus opening the apostles minds to the Scriptures about Him.

It is one Gospel and Jesus gives it to them in Luke 24. Peter is not giving a discourse on grace and defining it in Acts 2 & 3. He is telling the audience of Jews what Jesus DID. The very act of dying and shedding His Blood and Raised three days later IS Grace.

I invite you to read all of Peter's epistles and let me know if he promotes a different gospel than Paul. 1 Peter 1 should be all that is needed to come to a conclusion:

1 Peter 1:

To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen 2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure. 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 6 In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials, 7 so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 8 and though you have not seen Him, you love Him, and though you do not see Him now, but believe in Him, you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls. 10 As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries, 11 seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow. 12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you, in these things which now have been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things into which angels long to look. 13 Therefore, prepare your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ. 14 As obedient children, do not be conformed to the former lusts which were yours in your ignorance, 15 but like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior; 16 because it is written, “You shall be holy, for I am holy.” 17 If you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay on earth; 18 knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, 19 but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ. 20 For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you 21 who through Him are believers in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God. 22 Since you have in obedience to the truth purified your souls for a sincere love of the brethren, fervently love one another from the heart, 23 for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God. 24 For, “All flesh is like grass, And all its glory like the flower of grass. The grass withers, And the flower falls off, 25 But the word of the Lord endures forever.” And this is the word which was preached to you.

229 posted on 11/25/2013 1:09:20 PM PST by redleghunter
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To: smvoice; redleghunter; CynicalBear; Iscool; metmom; mitch5501; BlueDragon; bonfire; WVKayaker; ...
Luke 24. Yes it says that Christ would suffer and rise again from the dead the third day. And that REPENTANCE for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, BEGINNING FROM JERUSALEM. Not only does this NOT say that CHRIST WOULD DIE FOR OUR SINS, it also DOES SAY THIS: REPENTANCE would be the basis for FORGIVENESS OF SINS. NOT THE BLOOD OF CHRIST.

That is frankly inaccurate and the difference btwn what Paul preached is imaginary, as shown before. To reiterate and add:

The Lord's death and resurrection go together because the former provided for the later. Under the law forgiveness was given before the atonement was made because it was done under the rubric of the atonement that would be made, and which ultimately the "the Lamb of which which taketh away the sin of the world" provided and is received by faith - as known and stated by John whom you have preaching a "kingdom gospel" (Jn. 1:29; 3:16; 5:24)

You can hold that before His death the Lord had offered Himself to Israel as their Messiah in the way that would have resulted in the kind of physical theocratic kingdom on earth that you think Peter is preaching, with its salvation, but the fact is that in foreknowledge of God Christ knew this acceptance would not happen, but instead He was to give his life a ransom for many, and which he plainly stated to the to the apostles:

Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many. (Matthew 20:28)

This is why the death and resurrection of Christ precedes the forgiveness of sins, as it provides for it, consistent wit the substitutionary atonement under the Law, in which the scapegoat and sacrifice for sins was made once a year. (Lv. 16; 17:11)

Thus Peter like Paul, places the promise of forgiveness and the atonement together. As regards the alleged difference btwn the Lord Jesus and Peter versus Paul, because the former preached repentance as a condition for salvation, this is what Paul said he preached as well.

Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. (Acts 20:21)

But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judæa, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance. (Acts 26:20)

In fact Paul is recorded as preaching repentance more, including to pagans:

And saying, Sirs, why do ye these things? We also are men of like passions with you, and preach unto you that ye should turn from these vanities unto the living God, which made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are therein: (Acts 14:15)

And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead. (Acts 17:30-31)

And as he reasoned of righteousness, temperance, and judgment to come, Felix trembled, and answered, Go thy way for this time; when I have a convenient season, I will call for thee. (Acts 24:25)

And yet both Peter and Paul also preached salvation by believing (Acts 10:43; 16:31) But which is not a contradiction with themselves of btwn themselves, for as said, one cannot believe without repenting, and to be believe on the Lord Jesus is to repent - "repent and believe" being a reinforcement of "believe" - from unbelief to belief, and which has moral ramifications. Which is why souls reject Christ, as they intuitively know He is a threat to their lifestyle.

One comes to Christ as a contrite damned sinner who is morally destitute of any merit whereby he may escape Hell and gain eternal life with God, which is provided on God/Christ's expense and credit, and received by faith.

But to believe on the Lord Jesus for salvation from sin is to repent from unbelief to faith, and which entails changes in life. If one does not want that change, even though they are helpless of themselves to effect it, they will not come to Christ, as evil hates the Light. (cf. Jn. 3:19-21)

Moreover, in alleging the different gospels btwn what Peter preached and Paul, you are only referencing what is recorded of Peter's preaching, while going to Paul's epistles for the doctrine of the atonement, such as that we have redemption thru His blood, the forgiveness of sins. (Col. 1:14) And which you have educating Peter on.

Yet as has been shown, Peter not only preached forgiveness and the Spirit as a consequence of Christ's death and resurrection, but he was enlightened by the Lord on the new status of the Gentiles, and stated their hearts were purified by faith, (Acts 10; 15:7-9) and in writing to all (1Pt. 1:1) Peter plainly stated we are redeemed by the blood of Christ, versus the abrogated Law,

"with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot...(1 Peter 1:19) as

For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: (1 Peter 3:18) Meanwhile, the only recorded sermons by Paul also do not have him explicitly stating Christ died for our sins, so that we have redemption thru His blood, which is what is explicitly seen in both Peter and Paul's writing to Christians, but as seen above, he also calls souls to repent and turn to God for salvation, (Acts 14, 17) as this constitutes believing, while also promising justification/salvation by believing, like Peter says, on the crucified and risen Christ (not explicitly stating Christ died for our sins), as repentance is implicit in believing. (Acts 16:31; 13:39)

Thus both Peter and Paul preach Christ as Lord and Savior, and put together the death and resurrection and receiving forgiveness and acceptance with God, that "being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God," "Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead," , "that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins," while in writing to believers explicitly stating Christ died for our sins so that we have redemption thru His sinless blood (as does John). And both Peter's and Paul's main sermon to Jews are very similar, (Acts 2, 13) but extends to beyond just Jews.

Thus they preached the same essential gospel of salvation, and gave each other the right hand of fellowship.

2 Tim. 2:15: "STUDY to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."

Indeed, which is not done by making a division btwn the gospel of salvation preached by Peter versus Paul as being "another gospel: Which is not another." (Galatians 1:6-7) Unlike that of Rome, etc.

256 posted on 11/26/2013 7:38:42 AM PST by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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