The Devilish Puppet Master of the Word-Faith Movement (Justin Peters) - Strange Fire Conference

gty.org ^ | 10-30-2013 | Justin Peters

[fishtank]

Published on Oct 30, 2013 http://www.gty.org/resources/sermon-s... ... Strange Fire, part of Grace to You's Truth Matters conference series, evaluates the doctrines, claims, and practices of the modern charismatic movement, and affirms the true Person and ministry of the Holy Spirit.

The conference features pastor and Bible teacher John MacArthur, as well as teaching or presentations by:

R.C. Sproul Steve Lawson Conrad Mbewe Tom Pennington Phil Johnson Nathan Busenitz Justin Peters Todd Friel Joni Eareckson Tada

[fishtank]

Justin Peters says the Word of Faith 'theology' is just as bad as mormonism....

[avenir]

And yet I’ve met many godly, sane men and women in the Charismatic Movement. Not fakes, but real believers who did not seek signs and did love. Talk about believing through prayer!

“The Lord knows those who are his.”

[fishtank]

Have you heard any of the videos?

The error is not in being “charismatic”, the error is in holding to unBiblical beliefs.

Someone can be “charismatic”, but not be a heretic.

[metmom]

Much of the teaching of the word of faith movement is outright unscriptural, or not at all supported by Scripture.

I do know many people in the charismatic movement and the vast majority of them really love the Lord and live for Him.

However, I am concerned for many of them because some of them are showing inclinations to believe some of the outlandish stuff associated with that movement.

[GeronL]

The prosperity gospel hogwash is really appealing to people, especially those who cannot afford it. It’s like the Gospel of the Lottery or something.

[metmom]

What does it profit a man to gain the whole world and yet lose his soul.

There’s simply too much emphasis on the here and now and material, natural world.

This is certainly the Laodicean church.

[GeronL]

Yes, I agree.

[Iscool]

Justin Peters says the Word of Faith 'theology' is just as bad as mormonism....

The commonality with these fake religions is three things...They claim their authority comes from outside of the scriptures and they want your money and they pervert the scriptures to convince you...

That strategy has worked for so long in the Catholic religion it stands to reason Satan would use those same tactics on those who refuse to become Catholic...

And the sad thing is the things those people preach sounds good...They can back themselves up with a little bit of scripture (taken way out of context)...

Like Creflo Dollar there...We are all little 'gods'...If a person doesn't spend much time in the scriptures it would be easy to believe that and fall into one of these cults...I know...That's how I started...I started out with an Apostolic church...Fortunately for me, I started reading the bible at the same time...After six months, I couldn't hang around there any longer...

I believe many of the people in the Charismatic churches are saved but they are being scammed and these leaders are making it more difficult to get saved than Jesus intended...

[Fred Hayek]

Not fakes, but real believers who did not seek signs and did love.

It’s a matter of “seek ye first”.

“I sought the Lord, He sent a Dove

I sought the Dove, It flew away.”

As for the “Word of Faith” scammers, the favorite hymn is by a departed “sister” for the Beaumont/Port Arthur area. That’s right, Janis Joplin’s Mercedes Benz song.

[daniel1212]

I have esteemed and listen to MacArthur for years, but increasingly he too often speaks as if he lives in a study with little interaction with many others.

The aberration of the so-called (because they evidence little faith for finances) "Word of Faith" movements are grievous, as i myself document regarding Benny Hinn. However, the "Strange Fire" is an unbalanced cessationist critique that puts much of Acts in a museum and attacks Pentecostalism itself by magnifying the aberrations, and validates nothing in it.

My position has been and is, that even if i saw no evidence of the gifts at issue mentioned in 1Cor. 12, and only fabrications (and which do abound), yet i would still have to allow for the gift as there is no real case for cessationism.

I heard Phillip Johnson from the Strange Fire conferrer attempt one argument against cessationism. today on Grace to You, and his conclusion was absurd. His main case was that we see a decreasing occurrence of miracles as time goes on in the NT, and Paul told Timothy to take wine for his infirmities, and Paul left Trophimus sick, which evidences these gifts were temporary.

Yet even in the last chapter of Acts Paul is doing miracles, and which was just after he had a visit from the angel of the Lord. And the reason we see less miracles mentioned in the latter chapters of Acts is because the narrative changes, as after Paul raises dead Eutychus in chapter 20, soon he is on his way to prison and no longer doing public ministry.

As for Timothy and Eutychus, this simply refutes the "word of faith" theology that holds that it is always God's will to heal, at least supernaturall thru human agency, which is the opposite extreme of cessationism.

Others argue that the "perfect" in 1Cor. 13 is the completed canon, and that the "perfect" is in the neuter so it cannot be the Lord Jesus. However, the characteristics that are realized at the coming of that which is perfect do not correspond to the what we see with the finished canon, as we still see through a glass, darkly; not face to face, and do not "know even as also I am known." (1 Corinthians 13:12) The problem here is not really with transmission, but the reception.

Yet, when t"hat which is perfect is come," that being the perfect revelation of Jesus Christ at His coming, then we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. (1 John 3:2) Then shall i "know even as also I am known." "Face to face with God my Savior" as the hymn goes. Glory to Him.

The problem here is balance, and the Lord hates a false one. God does not change, and the Christian faith began with an itinerant Preacher who was rejected by those who sat in the seat of Moses (who demanded, "who gave you this authority.." (Mk. 11:27-33), but who established His truth claims upon Scriptural substantiation in word and in power.

And this includes miracles, and the Lord promised His followers would manifest such, thus we have the book of Acts, and God never said or inferred He was going to take a sabbatical rest afterward. Even though we have a complete canon, it tells of a God who ministers grace thru men, and in the light of attacks on the credibility of the Christian faith and Scripture, miracles, primarily the new birth, but more, are a level of grace which is needed now as before, and testify that we are the church of the living God.

Yet cessationists seek to negate miracles thru men by setting the bar so high that even miracles in Scripture would be disallowed. The premise for this cessationism is that we see fraud, however the Scriptural response in the face of such is to overcome evil with Good. Moses first 3 miracles were duplicated by the devil, but God's response to was not to become a safe but sterile cessationists but to out do them.

And the fact is that today the devil is going to continue to do supernatural signs, and the response is not to simply argue texts, but to manifest who the living God is, in purity, passion and power. Thus rather than limiting the Holy One of Israel by giving His a sabbatical and putting much of Acts in a museum, or allowing false teaches to go uncensored, we need to consecrates ourselves to Christ, and seek God to do as He ever did, as in the early church,

And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy word, By stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus. (Acts 4:29-30)

Now comes the confession that i can hardly describe myself as one who acts much like a Pentecostal in the positive sense, to my shame, but i know from Scripture and experience that the gifts such as healing have not ceased, as God changes not.

[daniel1212]

Forgot to add, i thing this reformed blog provides a fairly objective analysis of each side: http://triablogue.blogspot.com/search/label/cessationism

[metmom]

Like Creflo Dollar there...We are all little 'gods'...If a person doesn't spend much time in the scriptures it would be easy to believe that and fall into one of these cults...I know...That's how I started...I started out with an Apostolic church...Fortunately for me, I started reading the bible at the same time...After six months, I couldn't hang around there any longer...

I have heard that out of the mouths of people who lean towards the charismatic movement just recently.

Funny, it's the same people looking for feathers floating down on them (from the angels around them) and gold dust in their hair, gold crowns appearing in their mouths, people glowing like lights, and who are into *power* conferences.

Deception at worst. Shallow at best.

[metmom]

All that extra stuff we seek is just taking our eyes off Jesus, the Author and Perfector of our faith.

No matter how good and worthy, if it takes our attention off Christ, it’s an issue. There is NOTHING we should be seeking other than Christ. No manifestation, no gift, no nothing.

Instead of seeking the gift, we need to seek the Giver and allow HIM to decide how to best use us. And if the manifestation of a gift is part of how He needs to use us, then so be it, but NEVER seek the gift.

[metmom]

It occurred to me that most miracles accompanied the preaching of the Word.

Jesus did not do miracles for the sake of doing miracles, or just to make people’s lives all comfy and happy and prosperous. As far as I can see, they always accompanied the message, to verify and validate it.

Manifestations of power and miracles and any other gifts are not for selfish indulgence of the flesh, but for ministry to either other believers or validation of the preaching of the gospel.

The problem I see is that the focus is now on the show without any of the substance.

[smvoice]

Re: "from the angels around them", where in the name of all that is truth, does this "angel" thing rear its head??

"Know ye not that we shall judge angels?..."(1 Cor. 6:3). Now tell me, if we are to judge angels, how can they possibly be serving us now?? Wouldn't that be some kind of quid pro quo? I wish people would stop with the milk and get on to the meat of God's word. There is just so much to learn and so little time. And here are people stuck on angel tales. God has told us what our duty toward angels will be. And it ain't looking for gold dust and feathers...jeesh!

[WVKayaker]

In the latter part of the 19th century and into the 20th, the Holy Spirit moved mightily throughout the earth. We can read of many men and women who were filled with the Spirit and used by God to display God's powers. It is all a matter of FAITH.

What we see as a change is the ME generation. Too many are looking inward on what God can do for them, and not how they can be used as His instruments.

Two that stand out to me are Smith Wigglesworth and Aimee Semple McPherson. Wigglesworth wrote about her:

... Her public ministry at Angelus temple was extraordinary, resembling magnificent stage productions, drawing people who would never have thought to enter a church. Her illustrated sermons attracted the imagination of the lower classes as well as people from the middle and upper classes and those who worked in the entertainment industry. She employed a brass band, large choirs, costumes, and elaborate sets to draw people to church.

Her services became known for divine healing, where repentants would walk without crutches, regain lost eyesight, heal broken bones, and leave their wheelchairs to walk. Although her first manifestation of divine healing occurred in Corona, New York in 1917, it was not until she had the attention of major city newspapers, such as the Los Angeles Times and the New York Times, that many people nationally learned of such phenomena occurring in her services. The critics had a field day but thousands flocked to her services. She never ceased to be loyal to the Pentecostal testimony and many were baptized in the Holy Spirit and spoke with tongues.

As to Wigglesworth, he was mightily used by God:

...A friend of his lay dying. They had been kindred spirits from their boyhood days, perfect love existed between them. When Mr. Wigglesworth reached home one evening he found his wife had gone to see his friend who was sick and he immediately started down to see him also. As he neared the house he knew something serious had happened, and as he passed up the stairway he found the wife of the sick man lying on the stairs, broken-hearted. Death had already taken place. As he entered the room where the man lay, the deep love he had always cherished overcame him and he lost control of himself and began crying out to God. His wife who was present remonstrated with him, but as his heart went out to God he was lost to all around and felt he was being drawn up by the Spirit into the heavenlies. The deep cry of his heart was: “Father, Father, in Jesus’ Name bring him back.” He opened his eyes to find out there were no altered conditions, but with a living faith he cried out, “He lives! He lives! Look! Look !” The dead man opened his eyes and revived, and he is living today.

[cva66snipe]

I can't see the video because I'm on dial up. But I will say this though. I have read many of Joni Erickson Tada's books and I've heard her speak. She is not a part of the prosperity movement and if anyone has read her books they'd know this.

Good Night the woman has been confined to a wheelchair since she was 16 or 17 and is now in her 60's. She had to deal with the name it claim it prosperity crowd early on. Like the ones who say your lack of faith prevents your healing etc. She does not endorse such teaching. I know the type very well as I've had to undo their cruelly inflicted damage before. Joni is a very grounded down to earth person with a long time ministry to those with disabilities. Her ministry is a Godsend to many. She has touched many, many, lives.

[daniel1212]

The problem I see is that the focus is now on the show without any of the substance.

All too often true.

[dartuser]

as there is no real case for cessationism.

you should watch the talk by Pentington (sp?) ... he lays out the evidence fairly well.

[Greetings_Puny_Humans]

I would have to say that 99 percent of alleged “gifts’ are completely fraudulent, especially what they refer to as “tongue-speaking,” which is really nothing more than babble. I was converted by a Pentecostal, and so I fell into their movement since it seemed natural, since I esteemed the man who had been used by the LORD to convert me.

I’ve seen many horrible tragedies among them. Many horrible and false prophecies. Most of them incredibly vague, and therefore useless. Others specific, but damaging to people’s lives and to faith, seeing as how they do not occur. “Tongues” is approached as something that can be taught, if one does not start to babble on their own. A fellow told me just to start making noises, after he prayed over me, because I always imagined tongues as something that could not be controlled; due to my temperament, I just can’t get overly excited about anything, so the solution was to lead me into it by just telling me to “speak.” So, I did, these random babbling noises, which the fellow interpreted with his “gift of interpretation.” It quickly became obvious that, even if I was faking it, he’d interpret anything I’d say.

I do not hold necessarily to cessationism, since, as a matter of fact, it was after I left those damnable losers in the Charismatics/Pentecostal movement (though there are many who are saved), that I finally witnessed the power of God in my life in answer to prayer. And I am quite open to many incredible things to happen, like in the lives of the Reformers, like those in Scotland, who reported many stunning answers to prayer.

But I think there is a distinct difference in the character of miracles then and now, and it would also be foolish to claim that there is no evidence for a general cessation of gifts:

And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.
(1Co 12:28-31)

The first comment is that, Apostles are no longer given to the church. With the death of the Apostle John, no longer are there any healing people with their mere shadow as they pass, or raising the dead as they will, or being scripture-producers. That office has been closed up, despite what the “Apostles” of the loser Charismatics/WOF movements claim.

Now if the church no longer receives Apostles, then what about Prophets? Healers? Governments? Etc? Certainly there are many gifts still given, but is there any evidence for any of these people still being out there?

Do any heal as they want? Or do we all pray, and wait patiently, till God heals, if HE will? Do any Prophecy and commune with God daily, giving warnings and predictions to the church? No one that I know. 9/11 still occurred. And no one ever knows anything worth knowing. A Muslim may be converted by a dream, but I have known people similarly saved, who went forward to have “visions” of the Avian flu killing us all 2 years ago. Others, so jaded are they, that they would tell me that New Testament prophecy need not be “100 percent” accurate. It can have errors, because the voice of God can be drowned out by the internal voice of man or the devil.

The daily experience of faithful Christians is that of wonderful answers to prayer, but no specific “offices” of healing, or prophecy, or supernatural language. A little girl in Cambodia might start speaking English miraculously and convert a man, never to do it again. But a Pentecostal in his opium-den of a church has not done it even once.