The Devilish Puppet Master of the Word-Faith Movement (Justin Peters) - Strange Fire Conference

gty.org ^ | 10-30-2013 | Justin Peters

[fishtank]

Published on Oct 30, 2013 http://www.gty.org/resources/sermon-s... ... Strange Fire, part of Grace to You's Truth Matters conference series, evaluates the doctrines, claims, and practices of the modern charismatic movement, and affirms the true Person and ministry of the Holy Spirit.

The conference features pastor and Bible teacher John MacArthur, as well as teaching or presentations by:

R.C. Sproul Steve Lawson Conrad Mbewe Tom Pennington Phil Johnson Nathan Busenitz Justin Peters Todd Friel Joni Eareckson Tada

[caww]

<...” the Corinthian church”....>

Though both Jews and Gentiles were in the Corinthian church we need to remember how often that church had to be corrected as it frequently attempted to bring into it's worship the pagan practices they were accustomed to and which Corinth was full of pagan shrines etc.

..... Much like during the dark ages the church allowed pagan practices to infiltrate the church...and as do the Haitians with their voo-do practices within the Catholic church today...as also those in third world countries who see enough similarities they cannot distinguish between their former practices and the practices and or experiences within certain Christian faiths who teach as that today.

The Corinthian church is probably the least church to model a church after......Paul had some harsh warnings to the Corinthian fellowship....and on more than a few occasions.....They lacked spiritual maturity and fought among themselves often....much like many churches today, you couldn't tell the difference between the Christians and the non-Christians they were so messed up! They were all caught up in the spiritual gifts and basically lost sight of the gospel message and what their salvation was about..also like many within the Charismatic church today.

[metmom]

With this “prayer tongue,” you are not saying anything at all, not having a conversation, not receiving the benefits of such prayer, but are hoping and trusting that your babble is really accomplishing some unknown thing, instead of taking the time to discipline yourself and have a productive conversation with your God.

1 Corinthians 14:6-25 Now, brothers, if I come to you speaking in tongues, how will I benefit you unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or teaching? If even lifeless instruments, such as the flute or the harp, do not give distinct notes, how will anyone know what is played? And if the bugle gives an indistinct sound, who will get ready for battle? So with yourselves, if with your tongue you utter speech that is not intelligible, how will anyone know what is said? For you will be speaking into the air. There are doubtless many different languages in the world, and none is without meaning, but if I do not know the meaning of the language, I will be a foreigner to the speaker and the speaker a foreigner to me. So with yourselves, since you are eager for manifestations of the Spirit, strive to excel in building up the church.

Therefore, one who speaks in a tongue should pray that he may interpret. For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my mind is unfruitful. What am I to do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will pray with my mind also; I will sing praise with my spirit, but I will sing with my mind also. Otherwise, if you give thanks with your spirit, how can anyone in the position of an outsider say “Amen” to your thanksgiving when he does not know what you are saying? For you may be giving thanks well enough, but the other person is not being built up. I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. Nevertheless, in church I would rather speak five words with my mind in order to instruct others, than ten thousand words in a tongue.

Brothers, do not be children in your thinking. Be infants in evil, but in your thinking be mature. In the Law it is written, “By people of strange tongues and by the lips of foreigners will I speak to this people, and even then they will not listen to me, says the Lord.” Thus tongues are a sign not for believers but for unbelievers, while prophecy is a sign not for unbelievers but for believers. If, therefore, the whole church comes together and all speak in tongues, and outsiders or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are out of your minds? But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or outsider enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all, the secrets of his heart are disclosed, and so, falling on his face, he will worship God and declare that God is really among you.

There is a tendency among those who lean charismatic to discount the role of the mind in our relationship with God therefore the heart, claiming that we rationalize away the work of God by over intellectualizing Him. And I can see that may be true. However, we cannot throw out the baby with the bathwater.

We are to have the mind of Christ and have our minds renewed in our thinking. We are to love God with all our heart and soul and mind and strength.

Yes, God is about relationships, but it can not depend solely on emotionalism.

Sadly then, it certainly is obvious that most charismatics are woefully ignorant of 1 Corinthians 12 and 14.

[metmom]

Over time I've come to believe that God is never doing 'nothing' in my life.Wether I perceive it or not is irrelevant.

AMEN and AMEN!!!!

Preach it, brother.

More people need to realize that.

I think that this is where all the charismatic stuff gets its fuel.

By having some kind of manifestation, they then perceive that God is still working in their lives and has not abandoned them.

Weak faith that.

For all they claim they have great faith, they really don't. They have weak faith that needs to be bolstered by shots of *experience* on a regular basis.

[metmom]

It makes no sense to me except that it would likely elevate one to “feeling special” above the average Christian who doesn’t.

The biggest byproduct of it, IMO, is spiritual pride. Not spiritual maturity.

There are the *have's* and the *have not's*, and just wait until you speak in tongues. Then you'll have more power in your prayer life and experience the filling of the Holy Spirit like never before, etc, ad nauseum.

I keep being told I need to be, out to be speaking in tongues and yet I've seen ZERO evidence of any extra spiritual maturity in those who do.

[metmom]

I’ve been in a situation recently where I’ve been plopped into someone’s life and had an opportunity to minister without even realizing it until after the situation was over.

There’s always such encouragement to find your area of ministry and God provides the opportunities to do it best when we aren’t even looking for it.

The best things God has done in my life were the totally unexpected things, not the things that I’ve thought would be really neat if God did.

He knows best how to glorify Himself. Not us.

[metmom]

Here’s Joni on the *Strange Fire* Conference that was linked to earlier in the thread.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-Z2K0fsKOg

I will listen to the link you provided.

Thanks for your testimony. I look forward to meeting you and your wife in heaven.

[metmom]

We forget all things work toward the good of the children of God who are called according to ‘His purposes’....the key is we cannot see His purposes often until after the fact.. because... we have ‘expectations’ of what His purpose should be in how we see the picture or event in front of us.

Too often we step ahead of God....instead of just letting Him be the God we love so and trust Him that He knows..and that’s good enough.

I heard Nancy Leigh Demoss on the radio yesterday and she must have been talking about unpleasant circumstances, as I only caught the very tail end of what she was saying but the gist of it is that we should be praying (not a direct quote) *God I know it is within your power to deliver me from this situation, but if you choose not to then your will be done* and accept what He has for you.

[metmom]

Rom_8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

A great problem in using this verse to make sense of the babbling nature of tongue-speaking is that this is not something only promised to those who speak in tongues. This is something promised to all believers who have the Holy Spirit, who moves us to pray and gives us words to speak.

***********************************************************

The issue I have with that verse is that if the groanings are too deep for words to express, that would and should, include tongues.

Now, most people who speaking tongues SAY “words”, therefore if the groanings are too deep for words to express, that must by default, include tongues as that is *words* and a *language*.

Therefore, I cannot accept that verse as support for a prayer language.

[daniel1212]

Now, most people who speaking tongues SAY “words”, therefore if the groanings are too deep for words to express, that must by default, include tongues as that is *words* and a *language*.

The point is that God understands what is being expressed. The Jews in Acts 2 did hear the apostles speak (laleō, to utter words) by other tongues (glōssa, the tongue, by by implication a language) in their own language, (dialektos, dialect), but 1Cor. 14 refers to glōssa in which only God understands, and it takes a gift to understand, not natural ability.

Whether we can test this as having the characteristics of language or not, they did have it, but as we cannot test what they spoke in 1Cor. 14, then we cannot compare it to today, or at least every case.

But we can discern what love is, with its actions, and this lack of love for holiness, lost souls, and each other in body language is one the world can understand. That is what needs to be the focus more than tongues, and determines the use and efficacy of gifts given to express God.

[metmom]

Of course He does as He knows the heart. He can *read our minds*, so to speak.

The point is that the verse is invalid, IMO, as support for a prayer language because groanings too deep for words mean that words cannot express them. If the prayer language is a language, then it uses words, thus being a language, the Holy Spirit’s groanings are too deep for that prayer language to express as well as any other language.

[daniel1212]

The Corinthian church is probably the least church to model a church after....

True, being immature, followers of false apostles as the WoF movement much does, and tolerant of carnality, yet at least they were in church, and after chastisement executed some discipline. Today this would be notable!

.They were all caught up in the spiritual gifts and basically lost sight of the gospel message and what their salvation was about..also like many within the Charismatic church today.

Being were all caught up in the spiritual gifts is not what they were reproved for, and in fact Paul commends that they came behind in no spiritual gift, (1Cor. 1:7) but in regards to which a lack of order in the use of them was what the apostle reproved. And rather than shutting down the gifts, Paul actually commanded "Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues." (1 Corinthians 14:39)

Whether or not one is a cessasionist, he problem with the Corinthian church was not that they had the gifts, but the improper exercise of them. And today, the discipline of , if any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret, (1 Corinthians 14:27) is typically ignored it seems in Pentecostalism, as are the injunctions regarding women teachers and pastors.

In addition, the type of service in which the principle of all having the opportunity to share something edifying (1 Corinthians 14:26, 31) is rare.

[smvoice]

Yes, I can say "Israel was set aside as a nation very early", but that is not what God says. It was not official until Acts 28:25-29. Their rejection of Christ was progressive, beginning with the stoning of Stephen in Jerusalem in 33 A.D. (Acts7:51,59), then in Antioch in 45 A.D. (Acts 13:46), then in Corinth in 54 A.D.(Acts 18:6), and finally in the Gentile city of Rome in 63 A.D. (Acts 28:27,28). This was in accordance with Isa. 6:9-10; 29:10-12, and is followed by the gradual withdrawal of miracles, signs and wonders (Rom. 8:22,23; 1 Cor. 2:3; 13:8-13; 2 Cor. 4:16; 5:2; 11:29; 12:7-10; Gal. 4:13).

Paul had a two-fold ministry during the Acts period (Acts 9:15 with Acts 13:3, 47; 26:16-19). First, Paul preached to the Jews concerning Jesus, the promised Messiah (Acts 13:14-41; 18:5; 26:22;28:23).

Therefore, Paul went to the Jew first (ROm. 1:16 with Acts 13:5,14,46).

Therefore, in Paul's Acts ministry and his first SIX Epistles, he performed many miracles, signs and wonders (Acts19:12) and legal ceremonies (Acts 16:3,4), "...because of the Jews" (Acts 16:3, 1 Cor. 9:20-23; 10:32).

Secondly, Paul had a ministry of revelation. Paul preached the unsearchable (unprophesied) riches of Christ (Eph. 3:8); that is, the gospel of un-circumcision (Gal. 2:7), or the ministry of reconciliation by grace alone (2 Cor. 5:18,19, Eph. 2:8,9). Meaning that Paul preached the dispensation of the mystery ( Eph. 3:9).

The Church which is the body of Christ grows, in Antioch (Acts 13:46; 45 A.D>), in Corinth, Acts 18:6 (54 A.D.) and finally at ROme, Acts 28:27,28 (63 A.D.) HERE we see GOd making the transition from the Jewish Age to the Church Age. From MANY miracles, signs, wonders and legal ceremonies (1 Thess.,2 Thess., Galatians, 1 COr, 2 Cor., ROmans) to NO miracles, signs, wonders or legal ceremonies (Eph., COl., Phil., Philem., 1 and 2 Tim., Titus).

The book of Acts is a transition book. From Law to Grace, from a kingdom of believers to a body of believers, from Israel first to anyone who will.

[smvoice]

Daniel, it is not my intent to argue with you, you are a brother in Christ, and have taught so many things that are crucial to the Body of Christ. If we are "discussing" Scripture, that is one thing. But if we are "arguing", that is another. And I do not want to argue with you. Please understand this. We may never come to an agreement on this matter of "tongues", but I felt the need to discuss this from a different viewpoint than you. If this is going to cause hard feelings, then we shall stop it now and agree to disagree. THe Body of Christ needs exhortation, not discord.

God Bless,

smvoice :)

[daniel1212]

What solid Christian African Pastors are seeing is the Charismatic movement ‘preventing’ the people from Gods word and study of as well as from Salvation...... They have become the new Witch Doctors so to speak.. the Gospel message is not mentioned except as an after thought if that...and with the Pastors being seen similar to the Witch Doctors, just with a different title....and also seen independent from Gods word....I have written this from an African Pastor .

What your "solid" but anonymous African pastor says does attest to carnal religion, and is to be condemned. And which is just the type of thing the devil works so that he has no competition in the breadth of the supernatural realm. But which is not the Scriptural response to fabrications or demonic imitators.

And using aberrations to characterize the whole, and to seemingly set up a false dilemma in order to justify cessasionism, is part of the problem. Similarly, some churches refuse to evangelize door to door because the JWs do it.

It is not either you hold to the gifts at issue being operative today or you preach the gospel and "the doctrine that is according to Godliness," but that Scripturally they are to go together.

I do not sanction, but censure Pentecostal aberrations, yet my case is that the resurrection is not simply a historical fact but that it is an event which the NT church gave witness to with great power. And not simply the apostles.

That is the model, and such attestation of the risen Christ is needed now as it was then (besides it being God's nature to do such), in addition to textual proofs. Regardless of my deficiencies or of the church today i cannot doctrinally abide settling for a lower standard of attestation, which can be an excuse for not seeking to be fully like the early church in its positive attributes.

For the church is to manifest the risen Christ not only in purity, passion but in NT power. My conscience must be held captive to the Word of God. Here i stand. May God help me. Amen

[daniel1212]

Yes, I can say "Israel was set aside as a nation very early", but that is not what God says. It was not official until Acts 28:25-29.

Paul said nothing substantially different then than before, though a now "official" status is what you are hold, and so that the gifts suddenly ceased (which requires more conjecture), but for one thing, Romans is understood to have been written before Acts 28:25-29, and in it he establishes Israel being set aside as a nation, and what this means.

Which does not mean the gospel is not to be preached to the Jews, and thus supernatural attestation as seen via the gifts still has a place. And there simply is no real warrant for asserting this was only till the apostles died, and or the Bible was completed, or God set aside Israel as a nation. Which i still see as being much earlier, but as now, it did not mean outreach to them was to cease.

[daniel1212]

Daniel, it is not my intent to argue with you, you are a brother in Christ, and have taught so many things that are crucial to the Body of Christ. If we are "discussing" Scripture, that is one thing. But if we are "arguing", that is another.

I too, appreciate your heart for God, and do not want to foster ill feelings. Text alone is good for debate but harder for conveying the spirit sometimes. Phones are better for that. And i suppose we have gone about as far as we should on this issue. Off to SBC prayer meeting now!

[caww]

The risen Christ is not what they are attesting to Daniel....but I think you understand that from your post. It is all about come to Jesus and He will ‘Deliver You’ from all that concerns you and heal your body.

In Africa “Deliverance” from their plights to a more prosperous life is the attraction, (which appeals to all humans in a fallen state).......not the Gospel message.

Further many of these African Pastors, who oversee many of these events which are multiplying rapidly, know well how to attract the people using verbiage familiar to Africans which are used formerly and/or presently with their Witch Doctors......it’s a mask they use to draw people to their gatherings, not to Christ for forgiveness or salvation. So the Africans are going there in droves.

I find no reason to believe this Charismatic movement across Southern Africa is any different then the Benny Hill types we see here, the outcome is the same with many people being robbed of the Gospel message by all the hype and drama.

As for stating that the “gifts”, and “power” associated with God’s raising Jesus is still active and needs to go with the Gospel message today.... I cannot agree.

After 62 AD there is no record of any healings, nor tongues etc. Keeping in mind ten or so years earlier Paul was waving handkerchiefs and people were being healed....and yet ten years after that time he’s telling Timothy to take a little wine for his frequent illnesses...not to mention those who Paul left ill and continued on his journeys....Additionally since that time nobody has been raised from the dead either. (though of course that equation will change one day entirely)......The ‘power’ that raised Jesus now raises us from being dead spiritually....and will one day bodily raise us all, if He doesn’t come first.

IMO there is no greater ‘power’ or ‘miracle’ than that of the Gospel message on the heart and mind God has prepared them for....nothing in this world among men can top that...and the only way which will take you into His presence....everything else will be left behind.

[caww]

I would have to say that in these churches who speak in tongues or/and have one claiming they have a revelation from God ..... then that would leave the Bible once again to become where anything goes by any who want to name it so as coming from God....and that simply cannot be true. His word says nothing is to be added.

To say that the Corinthians were at least in church isn’t saying a whole lot when what they were doing had to be corrected over and over again....but we do give them some leeway as they were just getting started... But then we are back to if or not the church ‘today’ should or not be open to the various gifts as was in the early church.....

....but what for?... Why would we need them?... Is not Christ in us sufficient as He says He is?... Is not His Written Words to us enough as He says it is?

The one of many things false teachers, cults and false religions have in common is there is always “something else” other than Christ and His Word....which people are easily gravitating to today. IMO the something else is really the need to establish a stronger relationship with Him ...perhaps more time with Him...or working with Him in a new area of service.

[metmom]

It is all about come to Jesus and He will ‘Deliver You’ from all that concerns you and heal your body.

That seems to be the main thrust of the charismatic movement no matter where it is found.

It's the message I have heard over and over in charismatic churches. Problems are to be delivered from, not instruments to help us grow. And the pentecostal types get the vapors that God would use anything *bad* or unpleasant in our lives to conform us to the character of Christ. If it's good, it's from God, if it's bad, it's from the enemy. After all, God is a LOVING heavenly father. He wouldn't do or allow bad things to happen to His children, now would He?

Kind of looks like the apostle Paul did not have God's favor resting on him, now doesn't it? At least according to current charismatic thinking.

[daniel1212]

I find no reason to believe this Charismatic movement across Southern Africa is any different then the Benny Hill types we see here,

That may be all you see but even here i see reasonable evidence to believe the gifts are operative today, if relatively rare, even if atheists relegate all such testimonies to naturalistic causes or fabrications (with standards that would disallow even Biblical miracles), and cessationists do the same or as ad hoc miracles unrelated to the perpetuity of spiritual gifts. I do not see that as Scriptural or reasonable.

After 62 AD there is no record of any healings, nor tongues, etc.

Again that is all you may see, but as regards the Scriptural record the only reason is because the book that describes the Acts of the Apostles ends at the time, but nor without recording Paul showing miracles in the last chapter.

Outside the Biblical record you do have testimonies of so-called church "fathers," testifying to such, for what they are worth.

and yet ten years after that time he’s telling Timothy to take a little wine for his frequent illnesses...not to mention those who Paul left ill and continued on his journeys

As for Timothy and Eutychus, this simply refutes the "word of faith" theology that holds that it is always God's will to heal, at least supernaturall thru human agency, which is the opposite extreme of cessationism.

Additionally since that time nobody has been raised from the dead either

Even if true, and which presumes you have all knowledge, this argument is invalid as there were miracles done by prophets before Christ that He did not do, and one's that He did that no one else is recorded as doing.