Posted on 11/13/2013 3:34:41 PM PST by NYer
Ultra-traditionalist Catholics have openly challenged Pope Francis by disrupting one of his favorite events, a ceremony that he and Jewish leaders led in the Metropolitan Cathedral each year to promote religious harmony on the anniversary of the beginning of the Holocaust.
The annual ceremony brings together Catholics, Jews and Protestants to mark Kristallnacht, the Nazi-led mob violence in 1938 when about 1,000 Jewish synagogues were burned and thousands of Jews were forced into concentration camps, launching the genocide that killed 6 million Jews.
A small group disrupted Tuesday night’s ceremony by shouting the rosary and the “Our Father” prayer, and spreading pamphlets saying “followers of false gods must be kept out of the sacred temple.”
Buenos Aires Archbishop Mario Poli, named by Francis to replace him as Argentina’s top church official, appealed for calm as others in the audience rose up to repudiate them, and the protesters were soon escorted out by police.
“Let there be peace. Shalom,” Poli then said, urging everyone to take their seats for a ceremony that was also led by Rabbi Abraham Skorka, a close friend of the pope who co-wrote a book of dialogue seeking common ground between Judaism and Catholicism.
“Dear Jewish brothers, please feel at home, because that’s the way Christians want it, despite these signs of intolerance,” Poli said. “Your presence here doesn’t desecrate a temple of God. We will continue in peace this encounter that Pope Francis always promoted, valued and appreciated so much.”
The Rev. Christian Bouchacourt, the South America leader of the Society of Saint Pius X, said Wednesday that the protesters belong to his organization and that they have a right to feel outraged when rabbis preside over a ceremony in a cathedral. “I recognize the authority of the pope, but he is not infallible and in this case, does things we cannot accept,” Bouchacourt said in an interview with Radio La Red.
“This wasn’t a desire to make a rebellion, but to show our love to the Catholic Church, which was made for the Catholic faith,” Bouchacourt added. “A Mass isn’t celebrated in a synagogue, nor in a mosque. The Muslims don’t accept it. In the same way, we who are Catholics cannot accept the presence of another faith in our church.”
The Buenos Aires Herald has this account:
“A group of them attempted to spill their poison on the victims of the Holocaust,” said DAIA Jewish community group head Julio Schlosser, who was present at the meeting. “It’s very dangerous if we do not all publicly condemn acts like these, everyone, Jews, Catholics and Muslims.”
As the incident developed and the Lefebvrists, mainly youths, were insulted for their actions, Father Fernando Giannetti requested they leave in the name of Buenos Aires Archbishop Mario Poli, calling for those in attendance not to submit to “an act of provocation.”
After some minutes of tension, police officials arrived at the Cathedral, although they did not intervene, while Giannetti prayed Saint Francis of Assisi’s Prayer for Peace.
Just did some research. Apparently pagans used these symbols in their worship of pagan gods.
Thy name shall not be called Jacob, but Israel (Genesis 32:28)It is true that the Holy Bible still goes on calling him Jacob; do you know why? In any event, I meant the same man, Jacob and not Israel in a spiritual or geographical sense. I apologize if this created a misunderstanding.Thou shalt not be called any more Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name (Genesis 35:10)
Yes, that is unfortunately true; on this issue, as on a few others, I happen to agree with the SSPX, and not the popes. Without condoning the disruption itself, I do not hold such a gathering with Jews and Protestants appropriate, would not participate in one and am urging my fellow Catholics to do likewise. I can make an exception for common prayers in neutral venues: at meals, schools, funerals, political events, and government meetings; or when a non-Catholic is invited to a Catholic service in order to learn.
As to who can teach whom, I am familiar to the Protestant arguments about Holy Images; I understand it can be discussed, but on the topic on hand I simply wish to underscore that disagreements like that is precisely why ecumenical services with Protestants and Jews are an idiotic enterprise.
Disruptive was an attempt to ridicule Catholic manner of worship on a thread specifically about differences in how and Whom we worship.
I simply am not interested in who calls whom an anti-Semite; I know anti-Semitism exists here and there, but the word has suffered an inflation of meaning not worth sorting out.
That, too, is in "I don't care how you call it" category. I stand, or kneel, and pray before a Crucifix or a Holy Icon because the object became holy though the image it bears; I pray to the crucifix because in the English language not sullied by Protestant police station style of interrogations, it is most clear and economical way of describing what I do. If they want to know what is in my mind when I pray, well, they can ask and I will tell them; it is curious that they never ask that.
Once again, this difference in worship alone is sufficient reason not to hold any ecumenical prayers.
I hear you. I think the problem with some folks calling the SSPXer’s “anti-Semite” is that it allows others to miss/avoid the real issue here: the fact that the VII Church allows ecumenical prayers in a Catholic Church, something condemned prior to Vatican II. If you notice, most Catholics in this thread didn’t touch the real issue with a ten foot pole. You know, because the SSPXer’s are anti-Semitic!
I think we’re on the same side here, so I hope I’m not coming off as arguing with you. I understand what you are saying re: praying “to” a crucifix. Chances are in regular conversation I would probably say the same thing. I’m just careful in how I describe things in forums such as these.
Yes and yes.
Jesus Christ Himself said:He who rejects me rejects him who sent me. Luke 10:16
Exactly who are the Jewish people worshiping then? Our Lord Himself says that they reject the Father (not just the Son).
Yes, who are they worshiping then, if not the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob? You are saying they worship a different god, then which one do they worship? Look, you are confusing two very different points. One is that they do not worship God in an efficaceous way, and with the fullness of faith. This is true. This is what is referred to when the scriptures speak of honouring the Father and rejecting him by rejecting the Son. However, they still seek to honour the Father and no other God, and thus they do not worship a false god. They simply both know and worship God, the one true God, insufficiently, and it is enough to simply say that without exaggerating and saying that they also worship false gods.
If one is worshiping a false god, then there is a false god which is the object of their worship. This is untrue in the case of the Jews. Otherwise, one may worship the true God but do so incorrectly or without proper faith or knowledge, and this is true of the Jews. Therefore it is improper to say that they do not worship the same God as we do, but rather to say that they have rejected the truth about that God and therefore do not worship him in a manner which brings salvation. No need to confound these two separate issues in order to simply demonstrate that the Jews' faith is insufficient and therefore they need to be evangelised.
I think Christ says it best: those who *reject* Him *reject* He who sent Him. How does one worship at the same time one is rejecting?
When you ask how one worships at the same time as rejecting this clearly speaks to efficacy and not intent. I can desire to do something to please my wife while at the same time treating her poorly and this would obviously negate any real value in my action, but it does not mean that I am married to a different woman. It just means I am a crappy husband to that woman. The Jews obviously direct their prayers to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, who is also the same God as that of our Lord, but this does not mean that their worship has the value they intend for it to. This is what is reflected in verses which speak of not honouring the Father if one does not honour the Son. In order to have that proper value worship must come from a saving faith, i.e. a Trinitarian one. The Jews lack this, and therefore do not please God with their worship right now. But, that simply does not mean they are praying to a different God than us.
I posted a quote from the Gospel. How is that not relevant?
Objectively speaking, if you reject your wife you reject your wife. You may think you are worshipping her by doing great things but in reality you have rejected her. Thinking you are worshipping and actually worshipping are two different things. So, no you do not worship your wife poorly, you’re just not worshipping her. You’ve rejected her. And she knows that.
Having said that, even if it’s about efficacy in your mind, should the Jewish people be praying their less than efficacious prayers in a Catholic Church? Do you think it is anti-Semitic to think they should not?
Because once you get past the “Oh noes, these SSPXers used a term that I disagree with”, they were trying to back traditional Catholic teaching for hundreds of years. This practice would never have been allowed. In that sense the SSPX is absolutely 100% correct.
I posted a quote from the Gospel. How is that not relevant?
So any quote from the Gospel is relevant to all discussions at all times, just because it is from the Gospel? Sorry, but in reality, something is relevant because it addresses what is being discussed, and your quote simply does not. I have not claimed that the Jews honour the Father, but merely that they do not pray to or worship a false god. And, the fact that they fail to honour the Father does not prove that they pray to another god. You are confusing two different things with the apparent idea that failing to please God automatically means one worships another false god, which is simply not so. Heretics do not honour the Father either, but that doesn't mean they pray to different gods.
So, no you do not worship your wife poorly, you’re just not worshipping her.
Even if that is so, (which is merely to carry my analogy in a different direction with a slightly different emphasis), that still doesn't then mean that I have married another wife, or have done what I have done in order to please another wife. I may certainly not be sincere in my devotion to my own wife, but that cannot possibly be carried over to mean that I am actively sincere in being devoted to some other false wife. These two things just aren't related.
Keep in mind, the people here are not arguing simply that the Jews fail to please God (which I have no disagreement with), but claim that by failing to please God they now actively worship and pray to another god altogether. Their god (the one they direct their prayers to) is not our God. This what has been claimed, and it is this which I disagree with, not the idea that their worship is not real worship at all, i.e. they do not honour the Father, etc. It is fine to say they fail to please (honour) the Father, but when people extend this to mean that they pray to false gods they have gone beyond the facts. It is true that the Jews reject the Son, and by that they also reject the Father, but they still intend only to please that same Father and merely fail to, and therefore they cannot be accused of praying to a different god than we do. As I just said to another poster, heretics also fail to please and honour the Father, but they still pray to the same God we do. They just fool themselves in thinking they are pleasing him in their actions and beliefs.
Having said that, even if it’s about efficacy in your mind, should the Jewish people be praying their less than efficacious prayers in a Catholic Church? Do you think it is anti-Semitic to think they should not?
No, it is not anti-semitic at all, and I have no objection to the opposition to these things happening in Catholic churches. I don't really have a problem with shared events, but if it scandalizes people that they be in churches, then they shouldn't be IMHO. But, this has never been what bothered me, and my posts were all directed to pointing out that the habit people have of saying that all people who are wrong (in this case Jews) also worship false gods is simply going too far. It doesn't help the case. If somebody is wrong, and the Jews are of course, then it is enough to say so. Silly claims that they are praying to pagan gods is just goofy, IMO, and makes the people making the claim look silly. This weakens their argument overall, and just makes their opponents' position look better than it is.
This practice would never have been allowed. In that sense the SSPX is absolutely 100% correct.
Well, they usually are.
The thread originally was about Lefebvrists disrupting an interfaith service which Begoglio himself had instituted while yet a bishop.
If my own ridiculing of some aspects or practices common to *some* [Roman] Catholics are too disturbing (like praying TO crucifixes) then please, you are invited to take the conversation to some other forum.
As to "whom" is worshiped --- people say a lot of things. But I can tell you, witnessing quite directly, that I am acquainted with Him, and I may not much know with "unfailing" certainty who others worship, but I do know whom it is which I do.
So stick to your knowledge and don't attempt to teach Catholics, from whom you got your faith, such as it is. Especially, don't feel cross when it turns out we don't want your ecumenism.
No, not at all. But I think this quote, from the Gospel:
He who honoureth not the Son, honoureth not the Father, who hath sent him.
is quite relevant as to the question of whether the Jews and Muslims worship the God of Christians. Don't you?
You are stupid
I see no difference between that than you telling somebody:
So now you know -- more than you once did.
See your post #141
. . . is quite relevant as to the question of whether the Jews and Muslims worship the God of Christians. Don't you?
Look, what you appear to be doing is confusing the question of efficacy with that of intent, at least in the case of the Jews. (I am not trying to address the thornier question of the Muslims because they were never the chosen people of God who knew Him as the Jews did, and therefore cannot have claimed any historical relationship with Him.) I have no disagreement that the prayers and devotions of the Jews, corporately speaking, have no efficacy because they fail to please God. We know this because He has said so in the verse you have quoted, among others. By rejecting the Son they have rejected the Father, but, that does not mean that they are now praying to somebody else. That is a different claim and that verse does not address that claim at all. As I have said, heretics do not honour the Father either, but they still worship the same God we do, just without efficacy. Same thing with the Jews.
I will reuse my previous analogy. If I buy a gift for my wife in order to please her, but have ignored her and treated her like crap for months, she will not accept my gift or think it has value. But, that doesn't mean that I am offering the gift to another woman. I still bought it for her, but she simply sees it as having no value. The Jews do not pray to some strange god we have never heard of, but the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, as they always have. The problem is that they have not accepted his revelation of himself, and therefore have separated themselves from the life of grace. They no longer honour the Father by their offerings because they do not honour the Son, but that can never mean they do honour some other god they have invented. That just isn't true.
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