Posted on 11/13/2013 3:34:41 PM PST by NYer
Ultra-traditionalist Catholics have openly challenged Pope Francis by disrupting one of his favorite events, a ceremony that he and Jewish leaders led in the Metropolitan Cathedral each year to promote religious harmony on the anniversary of the beginning of the Holocaust.
The annual ceremony brings together Catholics, Jews and Protestants to mark Kristallnacht, the Nazi-led mob violence in 1938 when about 1,000 Jewish synagogues were burned and thousands of Jews were forced into concentration camps, launching the genocide that killed 6 million Jews.
A small group disrupted Tuesday night’s ceremony by shouting the rosary and the “Our Father” prayer, and spreading pamphlets saying “followers of false gods must be kept out of the sacred temple.”
Buenos Aires Archbishop Mario Poli, named by Francis to replace him as Argentina’s top church official, appealed for calm as others in the audience rose up to repudiate them, and the protesters were soon escorted out by police.
“Let there be peace. Shalom,” Poli then said, urging everyone to take their seats for a ceremony that was also led by Rabbi Abraham Skorka, a close friend of the pope who co-wrote a book of dialogue seeking common ground between Judaism and Catholicism.
“Dear Jewish brothers, please feel at home, because that’s the way Christians want it, despite these signs of intolerance,” Poli said. “Your presence here doesn’t desecrate a temple of God. We will continue in peace this encounter that Pope Francis always promoted, valued and appreciated so much.”
The Rev. Christian Bouchacourt, the South America leader of the Society of Saint Pius X, said Wednesday that the protesters belong to his organization and that they have a right to feel outraged when rabbis preside over a ceremony in a cathedral. “I recognize the authority of the pope, but he is not infallible and in this case, does things we cannot accept,” Bouchacourt said in an interview with Radio La Red.
“This wasn’t a desire to make a rebellion, but to show our love to the Catholic Church, which was made for the Catholic faith,” Bouchacourt added. “A Mass isn’t celebrated in a synagogue, nor in a mosque. The Muslims don’t accept it. In the same way, we who are Catholics cannot accept the presence of another faith in our church.”
The Buenos Aires Herald has this account:
“A group of them attempted to spill their poison on the victims of the Holocaust,” said DAIA Jewish community group head Julio Schlosser, who was present at the meeting. “It’s very dangerous if we do not all publicly condemn acts like these, everyone, Jews, Catholics and Muslims.”
As the incident developed and the Lefebvrists, mainly youths, were insulted for their actions, Father Fernando Giannetti requested they leave in the name of Buenos Aires Archbishop Mario Poli, calling for those in attendance not to submit to “an act of provocation.”
After some minutes of tension, police officials arrived at the Cathedral, although they did not intervene, while Giannetti prayed Saint Francis of Assisi’s Prayer for Peace.
Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.
You need not post it at all as it is not relevant. Many people in the bible “honoureth not the Father” but they still don’t worship a different god. The sanhedrin did not honour the Father but Christ never once accused them of paganism or atheism. Cain did not honour the Father, and Abel did, but they worshiped the same God. The prayer of the publican honoured the Father, but that of the pharisee did not, but was still offered to the same God. Yes, the Jews do not honour the Father, but they still intend to, and that means that they do not worship a different god. They just worship God insufficiently because they do not really know him.
The Jews have rejected certain truths about God, but they did not create a new God and worship him.How can you say that after they rejected God, the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost?
They have rejected the true faith, and the truth itself about God, but that doesn't mean they worship a different God. One can be wrong about God and yet not worship a different one. Many people are wrong, and maybe even fatally so, but saying they pray to and worship a different god is a very different thing. You are confusing and confounding separate issues. Your argument is effectively that anyone who fails to believe in God perfectly actually believes in a different god, and that just isn't true. People can be wrong, even egregiously and substantively wrong, without changing the object of what they are wrong about.
Again, let me use an example. Somebody could know me somewhat, and be talking to a friend of mine about me. If they confuse where I am from, or who I am married to, are they then talking about a different person? Or are they just wrong about this one person? Yes, they may be very, very wrong, but unless they actually have a different person in mind they are not talking about a different person, but this one person who they are just very wrong about. It is all about intent. The Jews worship the same God they always have, but are just very wrong about him. It is enough to say that they are wrong without going too far and trying to build some argument that they are actually praying to some other god.
Don't teach me. I can read the Holy Scripture; I pray as the Holy Church of Christ has taught me.
You got the point that an ecumenical service between the Protestants and the Catholics Christians would be a theological impossibility?
Very good. It is amazing how an ill-educated disruptor can attract so much attention.
An image of Christ is what is sanctified by the works of Christ; the idea that a "graven image" should not be prayed to is a heretical concept of men not familiar with the Incarnation as precisely giving us an image to pray to. Not "pray before" but "pray to". Glory be to God Whose image is on the Crucifix, forever.
we all beholding the glory of the Lord with open face, are transformed into the same image from glory to glory, as by the Spirit of the Lord. (2 Corinthians 3:18)O senseless Galatians, who hath bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been set forth, crucified among you? (Galatians 3:1)
Don't let the sectants pervert the Word of God; rather, explain it to them for they do not know it. Explain it to the Jews that they don't know the Holy Scripture in full, and unless hey convert to Catholic Christianity they never will.
So?
They worship the God of Abraham, Isaac and Israel. They do not worship Jesus. That is the difference. Nothing "dubious" about it.
Eh, Jacob is known as Israel.
The "sauce" is fine for me to told to eat, but when it's your turn...it doesn't taste so good? Is that what you're saying? Imagine my surprise...
As do many others.
Not according to the present pope, nor the two previous.
But the interfaith proceedings such as the one recently in Argentina, are disrupted by RadTrad LeFebvrists and the like, fairly regularly, just about every year.
Keep the name calling to yourself if that intended to be directed towards myself here...or were you speaking of the goons who crashed the party in Argentina? If the latter, then fire away...(for they are not present participants of this forum)
They obviously are as ill-educated as they are disruptive.
But if this "attention" you speak of...was directed towards my person...then that is error here.
Addressing the substance of comments made (by any), on the other hand, differs, for one can do so without going directly after a person (in insulting manner) who is direct participant on this forum.
As example, here on the religion forum of FR, one should not say such as;
but one can say;
With the latter, it may be advisable to explain why one may think an idea, pronouncement, practice, doctrine, what-have-you be considered right/wrong/true/false and so on, but there is no rule or guideline requiring reasons for opinions expressed.
To not adhere to the spirit of the established forum guidelines, all but guarantees there will be unnecessary disruption.
Flamethrowers make "toast".
Jesus Christ Himself said:
He who rejects me rejects him who sent me. Luke 10:16
Exactly who are the Jewish people worshiping then? Our Lord Himself says that they reject the Father (not just the Son).
So? Really?
My point is that the same folks who are calling others anti-semites would also call the Church they defend anti-Semite because the Church teaching prior to 1960 condemned the same thing that the SSPXer’s are condemning.
Yes, the protestants are wrong to accuse Catholics of praying to graven images and the like. When we pray BEFORE a crucifix or a statue we do not pray TO the images; we pray to God. I think that is what we must be clear about. We don’t pray to a crucifix but He whose image is on the crucifix.
I think Christ says it best: those who *reject* Him *reject* He who sent Him. How does one worship at the same time one is rejecting?
Is Christ an anti-Semite for saying this?
Well, muslims have a field day claiming Catholics pray/worship to the cross. Then, when you ask why muslims pray/worship the Kaaba 5x aday. They quickly stand in defence & claim “direction”. There you go, you have a justification of the same.
Except the Muslim religion is a false religion.
No doubt! But the point is about direction versus graven image worship. Islam is the only so-called religion that needs a compass to find their allah. BTW, at least one of the mineretts on of all mosques has the symbol “crescent moon & star”. Guess on what it is & meaning from its pagan history?
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