Replies

Typical anti-Mormon tactic, when you lack substance; lie.

Everyone has their free agency, you can lie and choose evil and you can can fight against God all you want. You can try to deceive people all you want too.

God allows that...for now.

Let's start at the top. The use of hyperbolic terms and guilt by association tactics to try to discredit the subject of your essay is unsophisticated and low. Walter Martin, John Smith, Fawn Brodie, et all would be proud.

Trying to drum up visions of Hollywood horror movies by stringing together words like "occultic", "Mormon phenomena", "Paranormal intermingling" (been watching the sci-fi channel I'm guessing), and "demonic possession"

This is exactly the tactic the democrats use on conservatives all the time.

"Hate the poor", "Homophobic hate mongers", "domestic terrorist", "War on Women", etc... we're all familiar with this kind of nonsense.

Half-truths, out of context quotes and outright lies. Congrats Colofornian, you've out done yourself.

I won't go through your entire post... I don't need to. Here's an example of a lie that the reader can easily.

Joseph Smith uses macabre setting – a funeral sermon – to first introduce the doctrine of necro-baptism

"macabre setting", really? Necro-baptism? No where in the LDS scripture does the word "necro" appear anywhere. Mythical "Necromancers" handle dead bodies. "Necro-baptism" refers to actually baptizing an actual corpse. We do not baptize corpses, this is a lie.

”...who can drag into daylight and develop the hidden mysteries of the false spirits that so frequently are made manifest among the Latter-day Saints?”

You just loooove snipping little phrases that add to your over all nasty and unkind theme.

You've cheated your reader from seeing some of the wisest instruction ever given to man.

Here's an excerpt. You can find the whole thing here Under the heading: A Mason's Estimate of Nauvoo and the Prophet—Organization of the Female Relief Society—"Try the Spirits"—The Prophet's Editorial.

A man must have the discerning of spirits before he can drag into daylight this hellish influence and unfold it unto the world in all its soul-destroying, diabolical, and horrid colors; for nothing is a greater injury to the children of men than to be under the influence of a false spirit when they think they have the Spirit of God. -Joseph Smith, 1842

Joseph Smith becomes obsessed with the dead:

Joseph pondering on dead, in your words makes him "obsessed with the dead".

Innuendo and false dilemma are forms of lying.

Is the temple haunted? Were these indeed ghosts of the signers? Could they have been demons in disguise as ghosts?

Hollywood again "haunted", "demons", and "ghosts". It would be comical if it weren't so insulting to my intelligence. Take your pick in this false dilemma, it has to be evil, noooo other explaination exists, noooo siree. Key the creepy music "OOOOooOOO".

Maybe the God of Heaven, Isaac and Jacob, who is the Father of all, both the living and the dead, sends any messenger He wants depending upon His need.

1. Was Siani haunted with ghosts and demons when Moses talked with the burning bush?

2. Was Job communing with ghosts and demons when he heard the voice from on High?

3. Was it really God who told Abraham to go kill his first born son? Is that really what God would want him to do? Or using Colofornian's words, was Abraham a necromancer and talking with evil spirits?

4. When Eldad and Medad (Numbers 11)had a spirit rest on them and they prophesied.. we're they in a haunted place filled with ghosts and demons? Was it a demon that landed on them???

5. When David said God spoke to Him, how do we know it wasn't ghosts?

6. Jesus Himself met evil spirits face to face many times and so did the original Apostles. Were they necromancers and occultists too?

The OP is Colofornian's own work and it shows. It's filled with half truths, logical fallacies, insults, lies, and low brow scare tactics all to ensnare the reader.

What's worse it's an insult to the evangelical community as a whole.

Me: Joseph Smith uses macabre setting – a funeral sermon – to first introduce the doctrine of necro-baptism

You:
"macabre setting", really? Necro-baptism? No where in the LDS scripture does the word "necro" appear anywhere.

So you're suddenly hypersensitive about a word that just means "the dead?" What? Lds never use the word, "dead?"

But, hey, thanks for reminding me that I actually did a "break-out" broader on this subject two years ago: Smith used Lds funerals to introduce necro-baptism, 'becoming gods' [The OTHER World Series: Vanity]

Me:: Joseph Smith becomes obsessed with the dead:

Your response: Joseph pondering on dead, in your words makes him "obsessed with the dead".

Well, it helps if you don't wrest my commentary away from the content: Lds "apostle" Boyd Packer, 1980 book, The Holy Temple:
"The Prophet Joseph Smith...had received the revelations (sections 124, 127, 128, and 132) which pertain directly to this work.” [Re: the dead] “And during the last part of his life he said, 'This subject was upon my mind more than any other.'"

So the supreme attention-getter of ANY subject of Joseph's last 2 or 3 years becomes in your mind mere "ponderin'"...

And so the fact that he was more fixated upon the dead (ya know, those 'necro-ized' ones) than ANYBODY alive makes it sound like the image of Joseph you would like to portray...
...was simply a flesh-and-blood Auguste Rodin statue version (we've seen "The Thinker" statue...hand on chin)...
...philosophically ponderin' away...
...not realizing that what he was overly fascinated with happened to be more "stiff" than the marble Rodin's statue was made out of!

1. Was Siani haunted with ghosts and demons when Moses talked with the burning bush? 2. Was Job communing with ghosts and demons when he heard the voice from on High?

All: To understand the backdrop of Storm's comments here, ya need to understand one simple distinctive about Mormon doctrine: Their teaching that their heavenly father is but a "resurrected man."

I have in my hands a book written by a Mormon General Authority -- Milton R. Hunter -- published 1951/1972 under the title: Pearl of Great Price Commentary. The first words right out of Hunter's preface is the sanctioning for such a book by the Lds Church hierarchy: "For many years the General Authorities of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and probably the majority of its members, have felt a definite need for a Pearl of Great Price commentary." (p. v)

On page 54 of Hunter's book, he describes the Mormon "Godhead" as follows: "...the Godhead is componed of three separate and distinct persons, TWO of which have passed through mortality and are now RESURRECTED..."

So, per the Mormon god-view, since Heavenly Father is a resurrected man, should he appear to anybody on earth, why he's just a "ghost" or "spirit" appearing...or, somebody (like me, says SP) could make it out to be that way.

But sorry, SP. Heavenly Father was NEVER a man. He never sinned. And therefore, He didn't have to die. And, no, unlike His Son, He wasn't resurrected. Therefore, your reference here to Job, etc. is quite spurious.

5. David...

[See my last post...last part of my answer applies there as well]

6. Jesus Himself met evil spirits face to face many times and so did the original Apostles. Were they necromancers and occultists too?

#1...Jesus NEVER had to consult with anybody other than His Father/Holy Spirit...So no "necromancy" there...

#2...You may have it in your peculiar worldview that demonic-type 'angels' living forever with the Mormon god -- as Joseph Smith believed...were resurrected men..
...see The Doctrine and Covenants [132:17: Non-abiding 'angels' remain with Mormon god, said Smith]; ...
...but the Biblical worldview is that demonic spirits were never men & hence never died as men.

4. When Eldad and Medad (Numbers 11)had a spirit rest on them and they prophesied.. we're they in a haunted place filled with ghosts and demons? Was it a demon that landed on them???

You're on extremely dangerous spiritual ground here, Storm.

Numbers 11, v. 26 specifically says it was "THE" Spirit (not just "a" spirit).

In the chapter before Jesus talks about those who blaspheme the Holy Spirit (Luke 12:10), he talks about casting out demons "by the finger of God" (Luke 11:20), which MANY Bible commentators reference that "finger" as the Holy Spirit Himself: 20 But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you." (Jesus, Luke 11:20)

If we go to Mark 3, where Jesus is referenced also talking about blaspheming the Holy Spirit (3:28-29), the context also shows a heavy focus on casting out demons in that chapter ... see Mark 3:11, 22-23 -- even to the point where Jesus defends the Holy Spirit by asking a rhetorical question in v. 23: "How can Satan cast out Satan?"

IoW, the context is all clear: Jesus was casting out demons. The Pharisees were accusing Him of casting out spirits by Satan's power. Jesus, then in Mark 3:28 (also Luke 12) essentially says,
"Hey, if you say anything against Me -- you can be forgiven"...
..."but if you're going to accuse or insinuate" (even to make some attempted apologetic point) "that the Holy Spirit was operating as Satan or satanic hosts...
...duck! Look out! Forgiveness will NEVER be yours!"

I'm not saying you believe this; but you are so wrecklessly tossing around the Holy Spirit's Name in conjunction with demonic activity, that a warning here is quite proper: It was so serious of a sin that Jesus told them flat-out "no forgiveness forthcoming" for even suggesting such ties/links.

I warn you: In God's Name, stop being so cavalier with your weak apologetics' efforts that you wind up so readily bandying out the Name of the Holy Spirit!