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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans; agere_contra; jodyel; Springfield Reformer; If You Want It Fixed - Fix It
And where is your sacrament of water necessary to receive eternal life, since the Jews did not speak in metaphorical language ever?

Oh, it only does so when needed to conform to RC doctrine. But consistent with believing that the Lord was speaking literally at the Last Supper, so that He was in the stomach of the disciples at the same time as He sat before them - and these kosher simply consumed their Lord, with not a word of characteristic query or protest (cf. Acts 10:9-16) - then David also engaged in transubstantiation.

For after 3 of his mighty men obtained water of the water of the well of Beth–lehem which David longed for, "he would not drink thereof, but poured it out unto the Lord" saying, "Be it far from me, O Lord, that I should do this: is not this the blood of the men that went in jeopardy of their lives? therefore he would not drink it." (2 Samuel 23:15-17)

Here water can be said to have turned into blood like as at the last supper, if we are to take such literally.

Moreover, by consuming their Lord the entire church is, in turn, substantiated into bread: "For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread." (1 Corinthians 10:17)

For Israel became a lion who ate and drank men:

"Behold, the people shall rise up as a great lion, and lift up himself as a young lion: he shall not lie down until he eat of the prey, and drink the blood of the slain." (Numbers 23:24)

And of-course rather than the apostles understanding the Lord's words at the LS as being consistent with Hebrew use of metaphor, they not only believed David turned water into blood but that when Jeremiah proclaims, "Your words were found. and I ate them. and your word was to me the joy and rejoicing of my heart," (Jer. 15:16) then this also was literal, and thus they meekly submitted to chewing the flesh of their master.

Likewise when Ezekiel is told, "eat this scroll, and go, speak to the house of Israel" (Ezek. 3:1), or (in a phrase most similar to the Lord's supper) John is commanded, "Take the scroll ... Take it and eat it" (Rev. 10:8-9 )

Or when the fearful Israelites exclaimed that the Promised Land was “a land that eateth up the inhabitants thereof;” or when Joshua exhorted the Israelites, “Only rebel not ye against the LORD, neither fear ye the people of the land; for they are bread for us” (Num. 13:32; 14:9)

For David himself faced cannibals,

"When the wicked, even mine enemies and my foes, came upon me to eat up my flesh, they stumbled and fell." (Psalms 27:2) Instead, those who believe in transubstantiation and the claims made for it have "eaten the fruit of lies." (Hos. 10:13)

As for John 6, those who came for physical food were rebuffed by the Lord telling them to "labor for meat which endureth unto everlasting life," which "labor" being defined is "This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent." (Jn. 6:27,29)

And which is entirely consistent with John, in which believing on the Lord Jesus is how one obtains eternal life. (Jn. 3;16,6; 5:24, etc.)

And in which the Lord is referred to by many metaphors:

In John 1:29, He is “the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.”

In John 3, Jesus is the likened to the serpent in the wilderness (Num. 21) who must “be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal” (vs. 14, 15).

In John 4, Jesus is the living water, that “whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life” (v. 14).

In John 5, Jesus is the Truth whom a "shining light" bore witness to (vs. 33,34).

In John 6, Jesus is the bread of God “which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.” “..that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day” (vs. 35,40). This bread is called His flesh, “which I will give for the life of the world” (v. 51). And as He is the “living bread,” and “the life of the flesh is in the blood,” so the soon to be crucified Christ is metaphorical bread and blood.

In John 10, Jesus is “the door of the sheep,”, and the good shepherd [who] giveth his life for the sheep”, “that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly” vs. 7, 10, 11).

In John 12, He is the LORD who Isaiah saw high and lifted up in glory, when Isaiah uttered the prophecy which as given in it’s fulfilled sense in Jn. 6 (Is. 6:1-10; Jn. 12:34b-50). To God be the glory.

In John 15, Jesus is the true vine. Thus the use of metaphors in Jn. 6 to denote believing and living by the Word of God, and most essentially Christ, is consistent theologically, culturally and and grammatically, whereas eating something to gain eternal life is distinctively pagan. The Jewish passover did not impart life, and Jesus analogy in Jn. 6 was not to the passover, but the miraculous bread from Heaven, which gave physical life, which corresponds to spiritual life under the New Covenant.

That believing/receiving the Lord via the gospel of the crucified Christ in their innermost being and living by His words in faith is what "eating and drinking" refers to is seen by the fact that NOWHERE did anyone receive life in themselves by physical consumption, (cf. 1 Corinthians 8:8) but by believing.

Therefore in explaining His words in Jn. 6, the Lord states in Jn. 6:57, "As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me." (John 6:57)

And rather than the Lord physically consuming some transubstantiated flesh the Father in order to live by Him, what this means is that "It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." (Matthew 4:4)

Therefore the Lord said, "My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work." (John 4:34)

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life." (John 6:63)

As for spiritual effects from the physical properties of food, "meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse." (1 Corinthians 8:8)

In addition, transubstantiation, in which the substance of bread and wine is said to be "really" changed, so that the bread and wine become the Lord's body and blood, though the sensory aspects of the earthly elements remain the same, is contrary to the miracles which the Lord and His followers did. The water actually became wine in John 2, and it tasted like it, and sick people who were supernaturally made well knew it, and it was apparent, (Acts 3) but such was not by transubstantiation as defined by Rome. Nor is this the case in regeneration, which creates a new heart.

Moreover, no where in the Lord's multitudinous miracles do we see anything approaching Him being literally physically in two places at once.

More here and here .

33 posted on 10/19/2013 5:41:53 AM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: daniel1212
In addition, transubstantiation, in which the substance of bread and wine is said to be "really" changed, so that the bread and wine become the Lord's body and blood, though the sensory aspects of the earthly elements remain the same, is contrary to the miracles which the Lord and His followers did.

It's completely in keeping with the central miracle of Jesus' life, the Incarnation, in which a peasant carpenter from an obscure Roman province is -- according to Christian belief -- supposed to be Eternal God incarnate ... contrary, as you say, to sensory experiences.

The water actually became wine in John 2, and it tasted like it,

See the link on the Eucharistic miracle of Lanciano posted above.

Moreover, no where in the Lord's multitudinous miracles do we see anything approaching Him being literally physically in two places at once.

So? Miracles don't require precedent.

39 posted on 10/19/2013 6:56:41 AM PDT by Campion ("Social justice" begins in the womb)
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To: daniel1212; Greetings_Puny_Humans; agere_contra; jodyel; Springfield Reformer; ...

“sensory aspects”

Completely hits the nail....appeals to the human senses...does not come from the Spirit.


105 posted on 10/19/2013 1:42:42 PM PDT by jodyel
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