The point was that we have RCs claiming the Holy Spirit inspires those who choose the popes, and thus who judge them as heretics is censured and (any dissent it seems) .
While God can allow influences that deceive men as part of His judgment, and make it work for good for those who love Him, yet as said, that does not validate men knowingly electing manifestly immoral impenitent men or heretics as succeeding Peter. And it works towards replacing them both and validating dissent from such. As seen in how the church began.
Regarding the casting of lots, while there may have been an OT precedent, like many OT precedents, it wasn’t binding. I know of no Christian body that picks a leader by lot.
Regarding the casting of lots, while there may have been an OT precedent, like many OT precedents, it wasn’t binding. I know of no Christian body that picks a leader by lot.
Of course not, as that means was only used for the one and only apostolic successor, in distinction to the election of deacons (which corporate election model Rome once followed for popes). Had there been another apostolic successor, i believe it most likely would have been by the same means. But which Rome seems unthinkable for Rome, while instead papal elections have often involved much craftiness and intrigue (and a long term clear preference for Italians!).
However, I think the Inquisition can be reasoned to, meaning, educated people of the time considered the Inquisition and its methods appropriate (though wrongly)for the preservation of faith the protection of souls. Does that excuse them for killing people of conscience, no.
I understand the cultural context, yet neither Scripture nor Catholic tradition supported it, but it was later adopted from the State, being enabled to do so. Early Protestantism had to unlearn such from Rome, as reformation is progressive, while in Catholicism it is an example of what an autocratic authority can teach, whether it be that heretics are to be tortured or burned, or that Mary was bodily assumed into Heaven above the choirs of angels to the throne of the Most Holy Trinity as the triple crowned Queen of the Universe.
Meanwhile, just as a inquisitor had to obey his church (lest he be a subject of the Inquisition) so RCs today are often told they must do the same, and that they have no place in of judging the pope as being in error.
While i certainly disagree with the Catholicism of the trsdional RC who was basically told this here, i uphold his right to dissent based upon sincere and objective examination of the evidence, with a teachable spirit, and which must precede judgment. And which manner of dissent Rome actually allows for, if not a negative conclusion resulting from it.
I can appreciate your thoughtful reply, though disagree with some of its points.
Alexander VI wasn’t an heretic, and had been trained in both law and theology. I don’t think that, at the time, anybody considered him the next Caligula, rather, I think he decided to live it up, feeling untouchable.
Regarding dissent, all Catholics can dissent on any matter not declared dogmatic. Should they dissent on dogmatic matters, they are free to walk out the door to another denomination.
Secondly, Peter was directly chosen by Jesus, and then Linus, and Anacletus after him. However, I don’t see any reference to it done by casting lots.
Regarding the Inquisition, let us not forget that Protestants took on many similar behaviors, though without trial, namely hanging, death by fire, as well as the confiscation of property and destruction of property. Please see (http://socrates58.blogspot.com/2007/03/protestant-inquisition-reformation.html) for the appropriate quotations and references.
Slightly out of order, the site mentioned above also reference the ABSOLUTE intolerance of Luther, Zwingli, and other leading Reformation figures. The Reformation was more about freedom of conscience for me, but not for thee.
The Marian doctrines are all Scriptural, as well ancient. It would also require its own thread.
Finally, Popes have the NEGATIVE power of Infallibility. Specifically, the Holy Spirit prevents the Popes from proclaiming dogma that is untrue. This, however, does not mean that every word that comes out of the mouth of a Pope is infallible.
Regardless of every point I have made, how do we as Christians show our love for one another and to the rest of the world? How do we spread the Gospel message to the marginalized and suffering? How are we to display this unity of purpose?
May you receive God’s peace and continue to cleave to Him.