Posted on 10/13/2013 12:01:40 PM PDT by matthewrobertolson
Mostly my own observations, colored by my understanding of scriptures and human nature. My analogy was not the best; a better might be of a parent with a child (which ties in somewhat with IIRC Luke 16, though my observations go beyond what's stated there). The Prodigal Son didn't know that his father would bail him out, but he thought that he could stand on his own two feed anyway. Had the Prodigal Son's actions been predicated on a belief that his father would bail him out, a responsible father would have had no choice but to refuse to come to the son's aid until such time as the son hit rock bottom, no longer believing that such aid would be forthcoming.
Lest you be concerned about the notion of God being bound by a paradox, the "problem" lies not with God, but with mankind. If God truly gives mankind free will, that implies that God is bound to allow things to happen which He doesn't like [God would be "physically" capable of preventing unwanted things from happening, but for God to do so would negate free will]. Thus, to the extent that mankind's behavior presents paradoxes, God will be bound by those same paradoxes.
For those curious to read all of John 3:
1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.
23 And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.
24 For John was not yet cast into prison.
25 Then there arose a question between some of John’s disciples and the Jews about purifying.
26 And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him.
27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.
28 Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him.
29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom’s voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.
30 He must increase, but I must decrease.
31 He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.
32 And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony.
33 He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.
34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.
35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Christ calls upon people to "follow" him. If one need merely believe in salvation to receive it, regardless of the sins one commits, then what reason would one have to avoid sin?
The Prodigal Son was able to return to his father, but the journey between the time the son realized his money was finite and his acceptance back into his father's house was a long and arduous one; I would suggest that it had to be. The father welcomed the son back because he knew the son wasn't expecting it. Had the son been expecting to be welcomed, I would suggest that the father would turned him away until such expectation was gone.
Do you actually think there is one generally reproduceable answer for your adultery scenario?
Even with the description you gave, there are many more factors to take into consideration.
Generally, of course, intervention would be appropriate. But to what level? By whom? To whom? At what time? To what extent? These aren’t questions to be dismissed, they are questions that must be answered, and acted upon.
BUT, the answers cannot violate Jesus’ new, first commandment. So whatever answers come up (presumably after much thought and prayer), would have to be subjected to the questions: Does this reflect loving God, and loving others as I love myself, and loving others as Jesus loves me?
Generally, again, caution, humility, and mercy would guide the proper response, with a tremendous respect for the fact that other people’s business are other people’s business.
And you’d have to be able to accept that the response to your warning of a friend of their sin, could be answered with rejection. So okay, now you’ve warned them. Should you take further action? Is that your role? Again, other issues must be considered - carefully.
Yes, on one extreme, under certain narrow conditions, the proper thing to do is nothing at all. On the other extreme, you stand up in church and scream “sinner” and throw the psalm book in their face. In between those two solutions, is the vast, vast majority of what probably should be done.
But it is not a “collective” decision, and it is not an authomatic damnation situation. In fact, given that you are talking about a busted marriage, there would be an enormous number of things you couldn’t possible know about.
People rush in where angels fear to tread. People use hammers on others when they demand they be treated with kid gloves. Jesus didn’t say to drop discrimination, he said be gentle with each other and act out of love. His implication is that we don’t know our own strength. It takes years to build trust through love sometimes, and only a moment to destroy it through hate or judgement.
With eternal souls at stake who will look at another human being and say, no more chances for you. Yes, sometimes such a thing has to be done. But to treat such an extreme with the level of... popularity... it is treated with today, is madness. And it is a clear explanation why so many avoid Christians - and that is a terrible shame and loss.
Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.
Amen
It is He who provides all of our physical and spiritual needs.
1 Peter 4:11 If anyone speaks, they should do so as one who speaks the very words of God. If anyone serves, they should do so with the strength God provides, so that in all things God may be praised through Jesus Christ.
1 Corinthians 10:13 No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.
Isaiah 43:20 The wild animals honor me, the jackals and the owls, because I provide water in the wilderness and streams in the wasteland, to give drink to my people, my chosen,
Psalm 111:9 He provided redemption for his people; he ordained his covenant forever— holy and awesome is his name.
Psalm 18:36 You provide a broad path for my feet, so that my ankles do not give way.
Genesis 22:8 Abraham answered, “God himself will provide the lamb for the burnt offering, my son.” And the two of them went on together. (Actually, one of my favorite verses from one of my favorite passages. Tremendous foreshadowing of Jesus.)
My sermon topic this past Sunday. (I'm a through-the-bible preacher. Next week is Chapter 24 since I used chapter 23 early due to the loss of 2 church members in a tragic fire.)
God's Call, Abraham's Obedience and Faith, The Blessing (Abraham's, but moreover the verse "On the mountain of the LORD IT will be provided." ...the Lamb that takes away the sin of the word, provided on the Mountains of Moriah, in my view, but in any case "on the mountain of the Lord".)
Well in my defense, wanting to get around Jesus’ teachings was the point I was making about many people. When I applied it to this particular Freeper, I gave quoted examples of exactly how they were doing this in the actual thread, in their actual argument compared to actual Bible quotations. So, since I was quoting their actual words, I did not consider my actions to be mind reading, but rather just reading. Actually, I felt he was making my point for me by what he was doing, so I’m rather surprised at being warned over it.
The first scenario that you hypothetically point to isn’t saving faith, my friend.
Secondly, no the father accepted the son. He didn’t make him go on some “arduous journey”, But the son did have a contrite heart.
There are two perspectives in the Christian life.
One, from the perspective of righteousness in faith through Christ.
The other, when we are out of fellowship with Him.
The first is in fellowship. The latter, out of fellowship.
The first is when we continue with Him in all things.
The latter is when we have fallen out of fellowship.
Guilt, is not a perspective when we are in fellowship with Him. It occurs when we slip out of fellowship with Him.
Sin is anything other than what God has Planned for us.
When Jesus Christ was judged on the Cross, all of our sins, past, present and future were at once judged and imputed in Him.
If somebody believes they are guilty, then by 1st John 1:9, they are to:
1) Face God (change our thinking and place faith on what Christ performed on the Cross) and
2) confess all our known and unknown sins to Him.
Since they have already been judged while Christ was on the Cross, He is now free to forgive us and remember them no more.
When we feel guilty, we are basically denying the Judgment of the Cross. We no longer are placing faith in Him. That is the essence of guilt.
Thanks, is there something you want to point out?
Well let's see - I wrote: "the answers cannot violate Jesus’ new, first commandment. So whatever answers come up (presumably after much thought and prayer), would have to be subjected to the questions: Does this reflect loving God, and loving others as I love myself, and loving others as Jesus loves me?"
And those questions, as you well know, directly invoke Matthew 22:37-40 and John 13:34.
Which, according to you now, are somehow not in the Bible, and/or provide no biblical basis for an answer.
On the other hand, you recommend I study the Bible.
Thanks for the advice, but I don't think I approve of what you mean by "study."
I think the book of Job gives us insight on how and or what things happen and when.
I think you are explaining "easy believism." The concept you present above Paul and et al address in their NT epistles. Then Jesus Christ addresses it to some of the churches in His address to the Asian churches in Revelation.
So your statement has an accuracy in that if someone has just a mental affirmation without the "godly sorrow which leads to repentance, which leads to salvation" then that faith is false as Paul, John, Peter and James all point out. Your comments omit the Sovereign Hand of God in Salvation. It is God's Salvation, that is why It is Holy, Holy, Holy and not of man, 'lest we should boast.'
The same God Who is faithful and true in justification is the same God who is faithful and true in sanctification and glorification (see Romans 8). He promises to conform us to The Image of His Son.
I think some of your general statements on Grace through Faith would be answered by reading completely the book of Romans (by Paul of Tarsus). Let's all stop cherry picking verses and giving commentary from the 'gut.' Paul wrote Romans for a reason. He knew all the various new false gospels popping up and The Holy Spirit led him to write the doctrine of The Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Matthew 18:15-17 ESV / “If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.
Matthew 7:15-20 ESV /“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. ...
:)
Sometimes you just have to let The Word speak for Itself:)
No, not at all. Belloc traces the historical roots that explains the heresies. Not exegetical exercises. Belloc’s book is not simply about disagreements with Catholic teachings but he traces the causes, purposes and effects from a historical and analytical point of view.
Does he base his analysis according to Jesus' declaration that "‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments" are the supreme arbiters of all the other commandments? That these are the commandments which, in interpreting any other commandment, cannot be violated? That all other commandments must be interpreted so that they conform to these supreme commandments?
Because if he doesn't, I'm not interested. I have this funny idea that when Jesus says that a certain teaching is supreme - it's supreme.
And it wouldn't suprise me a bit to find out that my position is considered heretical. After all, Jesus also said, ""If the world hates you, remember that it hated me first."
And what possible thing could the world possibly hate more violently than to have the supreme interpretive teaching be "love one another."
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