Posted on 10/07/2013 5:36:12 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
“If saying that people who don’t believe in Christ as our Savior will go to Hell—including Jews—is “hate,” then Jesus Himself must hate Jews since He’s the One who laid out the rule of Salvation.”
You’ve misunderstood me. I accused the other fellow of hating the Jews (he accused me of hating them), since he did not want to convert them to Christianity. I am quite with you and Christ that there is no salvation outside of Him for anyone.
My sentence was probably just goofy. In context, it ought to make sense.
First, the remark about proselytism was from the "La Repubblica" interview, which, it turns out, has been discredited for significant fabrication. Insofar as direct quotations go, there was neither a recording made nor notes taken (a rather shocking breach of professional journalistic practices), and the interviewer (an 88-year-old atheist) admits it was "reconstructed from memory" http://tinyurl.com/PF-interview-inaccuracies
Second, even if Pope Francis had made a remark against proselytism (we don't know if he did or he didn't), that's not the same as being against evangelization.
Many countries (I'm not talking about Muslim, but EU and others as well) restrict or ban "proselytism," defined in their law codes as offering bribes for conversion (e.g. housing, employment, medical aid), the recruitment of children without their parents' knowledge or consent, or other unethical practices.
Understood in this way (legally), proselytism is a recognized fraudulent, abusive or manipulative behavior: it is the opposite of legitimate evangelism.
Source link. Please do not repeat this falsehood about Pope Francis..
“I speak definitively for all Jews when I say that we don’t care where others think we’re going for belief or non-belief in their religion(s.)”
You should start caring. Daniel predicted the coming of the Messiah about 2,000 years ago, and your temple has been in ruins for just as long, even dominated by Muslims who hate you, according to his own prediction, and Christ’s as well.
Interesting/educational post/thread. Thanks to all.
“First, the remark about proselytism was from the “La Repubblica” interview”
This is a different interview, actually from a Rabbi discussing his conversation with the Pope. Furthermore, the La Repubblica interview was not discredited. The Vatican has not denied the statements against proselytism. Just you guys have. This is the third interview where Francis has made the same remarks.
At this point we have to acknowledge the pattern.
Ah, I didn’t catch that. My apologies.
No problemo, my fault for the faulty sentence.
Nobody is denying that Pope Francis spoke against proselytism. Of course he did. I do, too. Proselytism is unethical manipulation. The point is, proselytism is not evangelism.
CLICKABLE LINKS:
VATICAN - Cardinal Filoni: "Pope Francis exhorts us to evangelize"
POpe Francis: "Best instrument to evangelize young people is other young people"
Pope Francis Calls All Catholics to Evangelize
A simple google search reveals the Pope is talking constantly about the duty to evangelize: to spread the Gosepl of Jesus Christ to all the world.
Those who don't know this are --- is it possible? --- people who don't know how to google? Or possibly people who don't care to know.
According to your definition, apparently Jesus hates Jews. Which doesn’t sound right, does it?
According to my studies Jesus was and IS a Jew..
as well as most of the apostles even the married one(Peter)..
Many roman catholics like to say the first Pope was a married Jew.. i.e. Peter(Cephas/Simon)...
Our not-caring will crush your puny “should care.” We don’t care-—just Jewish libs care. (deep down they also don’t care-—just that their connection to their inheritance from G-d, Torah and commandments, is covered over by ‘isms.’)
I emphatically don’t care. Our dogma trumps yours.
I DO CARE enough to post an article about dogma. (I do care that you enjoy it and learn more about why we don’t care—about your dogma... or don’t enjoy-—not that I don’t care about your enjoyment—I want you to be happy. Happy people are better people.)
We really really don’t care what Christians say about TaNaCh (Torah, Prophets, Writings—the canonized Jewish Bible)
The aforementioned dogma article:
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1148059/jewish/Why-Does-Judaism-Make-No-Sense.htm
No one comes to the Father except through Christ.
If you are not in relationship with the Father His wrath is upon you; you are damned.
Of course, I usually use a softer terminology but these are the underlying truths.
From the Catholic Encyclopedia:
As long as the spirit of proselytism existed in the East the monasteries furnished the Church with all its missionaries. The names of two have been inscribed by Rome in its calendar of annual feasts, namely, St. Cyril and St. Methodius, the Apostles of the Slavs.
You guys, and Pope Francis, need to study a little Church history, e.g. prior to VC II.
Here’s a few relevant Bible verses taken from Bible Gateway.
1.Genesis 9:16
And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth.
2.Genesis 17:7
And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
3.Genesis 17:13
He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.
4.Genesis 17:19
And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.
5.Leviticus 24:8
Every sabbath he shall set it in order before the Lord continually, being taken from the children of Israel by an everlasting covenant.
6.Numbers 25:13
And he shall have it, and his seed after him, even the covenant of an everlasting priesthood; because he was zealous for his God, and made an atonement for the children of Israel.
7.2 Samuel 23:5
Although my house be not so with God; yet he hath made with me an everlasting covenant, ordered in all things, and sure: for this is all my salvation, and all my desire, although he make it not to grow.
8.1 Chronicles 16:17
And hath confirmed the same to Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant,
9.Psalm 105:10
And confirmed the same unto Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant:
10.Isaiah 24:5
The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.
11.Isaiah 55:3
Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.
12.Isaiah 61:8
For I the Lord love judgment, I hate robbery for burnt offering; and I will direct their work in truth, and I will make an everlasting covenant with them.
13.Jeremiah 32:40
And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.
14.Ezekiel 16:60
Nevertheless I will remember my covenant with thee in the days of thy youth, and I will establish unto thee an everlasting covenant.
15.Ezekiel 37:26
Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
Notice that none of these passages say that the everlasting covenant with the Jews will end when the Messiah comes.
Yes, correct, no one can come to the Father without the grace provided by Jesus; but that grace can be given to virtuous pagans and religious Jews without their conscious knowledge. And, yes, Jesus invited the Jews to join His Church; but He did not force anyone to do so, and he continues to extend His grace to those whom He chooses.
We see at the Transfiguration that several Old Testament figures are in Heaven, although they did not know Jesus in this life.
Obviously this is a complex matter, not to be settled in a few words. But it is simply wrong to put limits on what God can do to save those whom he chooses.
ref “Consider Tolkien and Lewis. What Lewis did was Evangelize Tolkien. Neither of them proselytised each other, and they remained friends of different religious sects.”
Tolkien and CS Lewis were good friends who shared a common bond in their literary/writing group. Both were great Christian writers of our times. Tolkien was a devout Roman Catholic who helped Lewis find his way back from atheism to his Christian faith. Lewis happened to return to the faith he was raised in as a child, the Church of England (aka Catholic Lite). Nonetheless, a great win for Christianity and a great example of Evangelization through friendship and living one’s faith.
Christianity fulfilled the promises made to Israel. It did not supersede them. Judaism still remains a religion to which God is faithful—so long as they are faithful to Him.
The above statements are heresy.
“I emphatically don’t care. Our dogma trumps yours.”
The lady doth protest too much, same with most atheists and other assorted unbelievers.
See #34 above.
“Nobody is denying that Pope Francis spoke against proselytism. Of course he did. I do, too. Proselytism is unethical manipulation.”
The Rabbi asked him about evangelization, to which Francis replied regarding proselytism. Obviously, as with most normal people, both words are seen as meaning exactly what they mean = the same thing.
Apparently the Pope thinks that evangelization is something where you don’t actually try to convert anyone, but rather “expand” the horizons and dialogue about how equal all religions are, and how we all have to strive towards the common “Good,” as seen in the previous interviews as well.
“Notice that none of these passages say that the everlasting covenant with the Jews will end when the Messiah comes.”
Clue time:
“Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.”
(Jer 31:31-33)
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
The Old Covenant was fulfilled through Jesus Christ, who fulfilled all righteousness through His perfect life and, finally, His death on the cross, making reconciliation for many.
The Old Testament system of sacrifices (which Jews don’t do anyway) and all the other Old Testament laws do not save, and cannot save, since salvation is through Christ only.
You would know this, if you took the time to engage the scriptures I have already presented.
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