Posted on 10/04/2013 2:11:50 PM PDT by jodyel
Present Tribulation vs. Future Tribulation, Dr. Thomas Ice
Over the years I have noticed an argument against pretribulationism which goes something like the following: "The New Testament teaches that we will suffer persecution and tribulation as followers of Christ, therefore, I believe the Church will go through the tribulation." The New Testament does teach that Believers will suffer persecution and tribulation, but it does not follow that because of this the Church will go through the tribulation.
Church Age Tribulation
Jesus clearly teaches that the Church Age, before the rapture and the tribulation, would be a time in which Believers would experience "tribulation" from the world. Jesus said,
"If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. Remember the word that I said to you, 'A slave is not greater than his master.' If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you; if they kept My word, they will keep yours also" (John 15:18-20).
"These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world" (John 16:33).
It is said of the Apostles in the early Church:
"So they went on their way from the presence of the Council, rejoicing that they had been considered worthy to suffer shame for His name" (Acts 5:41).
Later it was also said,
"strengthening the souls of the disciples, encouraging them to continue in the faith, and saying, 'Through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God'" (Acts 14:22).
Paul tells us,
"For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake" (Phil. 1:29).
Paul wrote in his farewell epistle,
"Indeed, all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted" (2 Tim. 3:12).
Peter noted the following:
"But to the degree that you share the sufferings of Christ, keep on rejoicing; so that also at the revelation of His glory, you may rejoice with exultation" (1 Pet. 4:13).
Therefore, there is a clear biblical basis for expecting Church Age persecution from the world toward believers.
Gerald Stanton declares the following about Church Age tribulation:
And one has but to think of Christians being thrown to the lions in a Roman arena, or Christians being torn on the racks of a Spanish Inquisition, or Christians today being put to death in godless Communistic lands to realize that believers have undergone fiery trials down through the years since the days of the early church. Such persecutions with their untold agony, no matter how severe, are nevertheless not "the great tribulation." If they were, one could hardly read Fox's Book of Martyrs without concluding that there have been two or three "great tribulations" every century from the time of Christ.
Down through the centuries, believers have suffered, bled, and died for their faith in Christ, counting it not loss to seal their testimony with their blood. [1]
I have read from various sources that at least 100,000 believers die each year throughout the world in our own day and age, not to mention the various levels of persecution short of death that goes on as well. These are the Church Age tribulations that the New Testament speaks of in relation to believers throughout the entire dispensation of the Church.
The point is that non-pretribulationists believe that future tribulation during the seven-year tribulation is basically more of the same kind of persecution that has been going on for the last two thousand years. On the other hand, pretribulationists believe that the Bible indicates that tribulation during the future seven-years will be something that has never been seen before, it will be the judgment from God upon a Christ-rejecting world. What has been going on since the founding of the Church about two thousand years ago has been the animosity of Satan, his demons and the hatred of the unbelieving world, not the wrath of God.
The Tribulation
The tribulation, which is spoken of dozens of times with various labels like "day of the Lord," time of "wrath," "the tribulation," etc., is mentioned throughout the Bible. Some of the many references include passages throughout almost all of the prophets, the Olivet Discourse (Matt. 24:4, 28; Mark 13:3, 23), and most of the Book of Revelation (4-19). That time is referred to throughout Revelation as the wrath of the Lamb or God. Note the following: "the wrath of the Lamb" (6:16); "for the great day of their wrath has come" (6:17); [God's] "Thy wrath" (11:18); "he will also drink of the wine of the wrath of God" (14:10); "and threw them into the great wine press of the wrath of God" (14:19); "seven plagues, which are the last, because in them the wrath of God is finished" (15:1); "seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God" (15:7); "Go and pour out the seven bowls of the wrath of God into the earth" (16:1); "Babylon the great was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of His fierce wrath" (16:19); "He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God" (19:15).
It is quite clear in the biblical text that tribulation is a time of God's wrath, not of mankind or of Satan. Scripture speaks of some episodes of Satan and the world against God's people, but the emphasis is clearly upon the wrath of God throughout. In fact, throughout the tribulation there is first a fourth of the earth's population that is killed (Rev. 6:8), then a third is killed (Rev. 9:18), and finally, by the end, all unbelievers are killed (Matt. 13:40, 43; 25:31, 46; Rev. 19:11, 16). Obviously, these passages speak of a time unlike anything that has ever happened throughout the Church Age. Kept from the Hour
Clearly the New Testament teaches that the Church will be kept from the time of God's wrath. Paul, in one of his earliest epistles makes note of this fact as follows:
"...and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who delivers us from the wrath to come" (1 Thess. 1:10).
In the same epistle he says,
"For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thess. 5:9).
Paul assumes the much used Old Testament term "wrath" to mean what it does in the Old Testament, which is the time of God's wrath or the tribulation period when God's wrath will be poured out upon the earth. Thus, these two passages, which speak of a future time different than the current Church Age which they were in, clearly see that wrath occurring during the tribulation. Therefore, the Thessalonian believers and all Church Age believers have a promise from God that we will not experience the wrath of God. A similar point is made from Paul's statement in Romans 5:9.
Revelation 3:10 says,
"Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell upon the earth."
This promise made to the Church of Philadelphia and thus all believers throughout the Church Age promises that we will be kept out of the time of the tribulation. This passage has very clear pre-trib implications. The "hour" or "time" of testing is what believers will be kept from. Further, the hour of testing is said to be something that will in the future come upon the whole earth. Thus, it is clear that it is not something that has happened during the days of the Church Age, since no one knows of a global testing that came upon the whole earth since the first century. John speaks in this passage of the tribulation period, which is clearly a time in which the Lord will test the earth dwellers (always persistent unbelievers throughout Revelation) and not Church Age believers. The passage makes it clear that the present Church Age is when the Church is being tested and that is the reason given for why we will be exempted from the time period when God will test the earth dwellers during the period we know as the tribulation.
Conclusion
The Bible distinguishes between trials and tribulations that are destined to occur to Believers during the Church Age from the wrath of God, which will be poured out during the tribulation that is intended for the world. To say that the Church will go through the tribulation because the Bible predicts that Believers will experience tribulation is an erroneous statement in light of the Bible's distinction between present and future tribulation. It is also more likely for an American, who has not experience persecution yet, to think that we must, since America has a different history in relation to Christianity than is common throughout the Church Age.
I have often heard Dr. Ed Hindson make an excellent analogy concerning this issue. He says that having the Church, which is pictured in the New Testament as the Bride of Christ, go through the tribulation is like a man taking a girl to whom he is engaged and beating her to the point of near death and then saying, "Hey babe, let's get married." Such behavior would rightly be thought to be crazy. The New Testament clearly teaches that Christ marries the Bride in heaven (Rev. 19:7-10) before she accompanies Him to earth. She is already in heaven since she was raptured before the tribulation in order to experience the judgment seat of Christ during the tribulation. Therefore she is ready, married and victoriously returning to earth at the second coming with Christ (Rev. 19:11-21). Only the pre-trib scenario makes sense of the details, thus demonstrating that the belief that the Church needs to go through the wrath of the tribulation is a false conclusion. Maranatha!
Endnotes
[1] Gerald B. Stanton, Kept from the Hour: A Systematic Study of the Rapture in Bible Prophecy (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1956), pp. 33-34.
>> “ THEY were ALL GENTILES. SEE?” <<
.
Doesn’t that mean they need one of your two ways?
Which one will you have them use?
I can't take this anymore. You are wasting my time here, asking ignorant questions based on NOT knowing GOd's Word. Honestly, I cannot take your posts anymore. When you read and understand WHO did WHAT WHEN, get back to me, if I'm still alive, I'll try to answer you..
There still IS that same separation. Gentile basically means 'without covenant', so there can be no 'gentile' believers. Once you enter the covenant, by definition, you are no longer a 'gentile'.
Israel was *not* supposed to be insular. They were supposed to be a 'light to the world', just like Christians are supposed to be.
Remember Paul getting all up in Peter's grill about not eating with the gentiles (c. Gal 2/3)? Find the commandment not to eat with gentiles. Go ahead. I'll wait.
Nah... don't do it... because it ISN'T THERE. Peter was STILL having trouble following Torah instead of Talmudism (where such commandments are expressly given... BY MEN). Likewise, your wall of partition is another insular device, made from tradition, not Torah.
THAT is what I’m trying to get roamer 1 to see, BY SCRIPTURE, it’s proven. He seems unimpressed by God’s word of truth on this matter..
No, I am unimpressed by your interpretation of YHWH's Word. Y'all really, REALLY need to read the front of the Book.
I think we all pretty much understand what happened to the nation of Israel because they stayed in “the front of the Book”. I’d suggest it’s time you learn the rest of the story.
BTW The Holy Spirit gave the disciples the ability to speak the language of the people they were talking to for a reason. That whole idea of “everyone should use the original language thing pretty much got kicked to the curb back at the tower of Babel.
That's precisely the point: NO, THEY DIDN'T. The covenant you are under was made with them. YOU are grafted in.
I’d suggest it’s time you learn the rest of the story.
I was raised up in the back of the book. Steeped in it... Hard core Dutch Reformed Calvinist. Y'all aren't telling me anything I haven't heard before. Like most Christians, I had never REALLY read the *front*. It was only when I took sola-scriptura seriously that I began to pay attention to the front, and found how much I still bowed to Rome. THAT is when the scriptures began to bloom for me, and when the prophecy started to make sense.
Y'all need to study the front. The Torah, what was said in the beginning, is KEY to understanding what will be in the end.
BTW The Holy Spirit gave the disciples the ability to speak the language of the people they were talking to for a reason. That whole idea of “everyone should use the original language thing pretty much got kicked to the curb back at the tower of Babel.
Zep 3:9 For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name ofthe LORDYHWH, to serve him with one consent.
Anything at ALL to keep from saying the Name. Nevermind the meaning of the Name(s), and keeping YHWH and Yeshua always upon your tongue. Funny, that, isn't it? Who is it that has forgotten the Name of their God (there is another prophecy to ponder)?. Keep the Name of YHWH covered up. That serves His purpose, surely, eh?
I’ve got news for ya. A person doesn’t understand prophesy without understanding the prophesies in the Old Testament. That meme about “most Christian” is complete nonsense. If you “had never REALLY read the front it sounds like a lack of interest on your part. No one can fully understand the New Testament without understanding the Old. I also was raised in a Dutch Reformed church and we got plenty of the Old Testament but not much of the prophesies. I’ve spent the last 40 years studying both.
>>Keep the Name of YHWH covered up. That serves His purpose, surely, eh?<<
Nobody is keeping “covered up” the name of Jehovah. Play the language games like the Catholics do all you want but the Holy Spirit didn’t make a mistake.
The Journal of Biblical Literature Vol. 87 p.184 has listed 5,255 known New Testament Greek fragments. The Tetragrammaton does not appear in the New Testament either as YHWH or as the Greek transliterations PIPI, YAW and Iabe in a single one of these ancient New Testament manuscripts. This is despite "some papyrus fragments of the Christian Greek Scriptures that go back to the middle of the second century." (w82 3/15 p.23).
BTW Do you get the Watchtower magazine?
Since I have shown well that I am one of the few here that are not Biblically ignorant, why do you not begin your post with a rational declaration, rather than attacking?
If there is anything that the entire Bible shows, it’s that Yeshua has dealt uniformly with his elect.
Only those that attempt to create special classes of his elect have any difficulty understanding his word.
Please cool the anger; we’re mostly ready to help others here.
>> “I’ve got news for ya. A person doesn’t understand prophesy without understanding the prophesies in the Old Testament.” <<
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Had you read his whole post before replying, you would have realized that he has the understanding of Torah and Tanakh for which you have demonstrated a near complete lack.
Its really sad to see so many doing battle with something they failed to read.
Well, I have some news for you too - Probably the very most prophetic books are in the Torah. One cannot understand the prophets without it. One cannot understand the writings without it either. If one does not count Jubilees and grand Jubilees, if one is not seeing new moons, if one is not intimately understanding the inheritance and the Holy Days, one is missing most of it. And making the mistake of not seeing the distinction between Judah and Ephraim is the same thing.
That meme about “most Christian” is complete nonsense. If you “had never REALLY read the front it sounds like a lack of interest on your part.
Not at all - I went through a decade of understanding very much like yours... without understanding the structures of the Torah. I was still thinking like a Greek, and had Rome colored glasses. When I STARTED with the Torah, and maintained an Hebrew aspect, Then it started to unfold. And it continued to unfold right into the New Covenant, with a completely new perspective.
For instance, there is no doubt that Yeshua declared explicitly that one should do and keep the Torah. Understanding that he kept the Torah perfectly and changed nothing was a stunning discovery. Everything I had been told He changed was totally false, and with the slightest knowledge of the Torah, one can see Him pointing relentlessly back to the Torah, and ever pointing to the Father.
But it was the Hebrew sense of 'disciple', different from the Greek, that sealed the deal... An Hebrew disciple treats His teacher's words and actions somewhat like Torah - They will do nothing to break the words and actions of the Rabbi, else they are not a disciple, and are something new, gathering their own disciples to a new sect. So interpreting the Apostles in a way that breaks Yeshua's words cannot be right - That lends a whole new weight to 'I follow Peter, I follow John, I follow Paul', as that is, to an Hebrew mind, a division of sects, and no longer followers of Yeshua - very important.
Yeshua said to do and teach the Torah - All who follow Him *must* say and do the same thing. Ergo, what one may think one sees in Paul *has to be passed through that statement*, or Paul is a false disciple, much like a prophet who goes against the Torah is a false prophet. Since Yeshua kept the Torah (His actions) and told His followers to do the same (His words), His disciples are obligated to emulate him. To wit: Yeshua could not break the Torah or He is a false prophet + Paul and the others cannot break Yeshua or they are false disciples == Do and keep the Torah. Paul must necessarily be interpreted in that light. And that severely restricts interpretation... And it also, btw, utterly destroys the Roman church, because THAT is the tradition mentioned by the apostles...
Nobody is keeping “covered up” the name of Jehovah. Play the language games like the Catholics do all you want but the Holy Spirit didn’t make a mistake.
The Spirit did not make a mistake. But all the same, the Name is covered up nearly seven thousand times in every Bible on earth, directly in opposition to the Torah contained in the same Book. It was the Jews who changed the Word, and the Christians blindly followed suit.
BTW Do you get the Watchtower magazine?
LOL! Riiiiight. Guilt by association. nice. I know of no Torah-keeping JWs. not a one. And they do not call Him YHWH either. Who is playing catlick games now?
ping, and please confirm the takanot and ma asim of the Rabbi... That a disciple of a Rabbi follows and emulates words and actions accordingly, so Yeshua’s would do so also....
>> “The Spirit did not make a mistake. But all the same, the Name is covered up nearly seven thousand times in every Bible on earth” <<
6828 times to be exact.
Well spoken. Hallelujah!
>> “That a disciple of a Rabbi follows and emulates words and actions accordingly, so Yeshua’s would do so also.” <<
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That is my understanding, and that one who changed the words of his teacher would usually be stoned.
The Bialystoker Synagogue Online Library—Jewish Texts
So you are trying to tell me that what we have today as the New Testament is not the divinely inspired word of God but a corrupted text. Is that right?
And just what are you using as proof that the New Testament has been changed? By whose authority to you make that claim?
>> “So you are trying to tell me that what we have today as the New Testament is not the divinely inspired word of God but a corrupted text. Is that right?” <<
.
What are your standards?
There are basically 17 different versions of the NT that differ significantly on important facts. Which of them would you call the divinely inspired word?
Comparing the various Greek MS of the “received text” word by word, finding each word in as many places as possible where it is used in the LXX, in order to compare which Hebrew words they correspond to, we find that there is much conflict as to word usage in the NT MSs vs the LXX.
That is an indication that the translators that gave us the Greek copies of NT books had significant lack of understanding of Hebrew language, and customs.
Not in the original Greek manuscripts there aren’t. Don’t try to impugn my intelligence by suggesting that I only use the English version.
>>That is an indication that the translators that gave us the Greek copies of NT books had significant lack of understanding of Hebrew language, and customs.<<
Please don’t start with that “the NT was originally written in Hebrew” nonsense. They were originally written in Koine Greek and we have today over 5,000 available manuscripts of the New Testament some dating and none were written in Hebrew.
Anyone who suggests that God was unable to protect His word by allowing some group or whatever to somehow obtain every single manuscript and somehow change it shows a clear lack of faith in God. Additionally, anyone who suggests that all those manuscripts were changed because God was somehow unable to protect and preserve His word for us today is not worth my time or the time of any serious seaker of truth.
No part of the word of Yehova was originally written in Greek.
The Greek MS are what remained after the purge of the word by Constantine, and subsequent persecution of the people of The Way.
Yehova has preserved his word in a few MS that were copies of the original Hebrew, and they show plainly the corruption that has taken place.
Yes he has preserved his word, just not where you wanted him to.
Wrestle with what he has provided at your own peril.
Yeshua has a remnant that do follow his commandments, and reject the Whore and her daughters and their lies.
And still you provide no proof documents. No one should take you seriously on anything you can’t document and I certainly don’t. Your evident lack of faith in God is telling.
I have faith in Yehova; I don’t know who your god is, but it cannot be him.
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