Posted on 10/04/2013 2:11:50 PM PDT by jodyel
Present Tribulation vs. Future Tribulation, Dr. Thomas Ice
Over the years I have noticed an argument against pretribulationism which goes something like the following: "The New Testament teaches that we will suffer persecution and tribulation as followers of Christ, therefore, I believe the Church will go through the tribulation." The New Testament does teach that Believers will suffer persecution and tribulation, but it does not follow that because of this the Church will go through the tribulation.
Church Age Tribulation
Jesus clearly teaches that the Church Age, before the rapture and the tribulation, would be a time in which Believers would experience "tribulation" from the world. Jesus said,
"If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. Remember the word that I said to you, 'A slave is not greater than his master.' If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you; if they kept My word, they will keep yours also" (John 15:18-20).
"These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world" (John 16:33).
It is said of the Apostles in the early Church:
"So they went on their way from the presence of the Council, rejoicing that they had been considered worthy to suffer shame for His name" (Acts 5:41).
Later it was also said,
"strengthening the souls of the disciples, encouraging them to continue in the faith, and saying, 'Through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God'" (Acts 14:22).
Paul tells us,
"For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake" (Phil. 1:29).
Paul wrote in his farewell epistle,
"Indeed, all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted" (2 Tim. 3:12).
Peter noted the following:
"But to the degree that you share the sufferings of Christ, keep on rejoicing; so that also at the revelation of His glory, you may rejoice with exultation" (1 Pet. 4:13).
Therefore, there is a clear biblical basis for expecting Church Age persecution from the world toward believers.
Gerald Stanton declares the following about Church Age tribulation:
And one has but to think of Christians being thrown to the lions in a Roman arena, or Christians being torn on the racks of a Spanish Inquisition, or Christians today being put to death in godless Communistic lands to realize that believers have undergone fiery trials down through the years since the days of the early church. Such persecutions with their untold agony, no matter how severe, are nevertheless not "the great tribulation." If they were, one could hardly read Fox's Book of Martyrs without concluding that there have been two or three "great tribulations" every century from the time of Christ.
Down through the centuries, believers have suffered, bled, and died for their faith in Christ, counting it not loss to seal their testimony with their blood. [1]
I have read from various sources that at least 100,000 believers die each year throughout the world in our own day and age, not to mention the various levels of persecution short of death that goes on as well. These are the Church Age tribulations that the New Testament speaks of in relation to believers throughout the entire dispensation of the Church.
The point is that non-pretribulationists believe that future tribulation during the seven-year tribulation is basically more of the same kind of persecution that has been going on for the last two thousand years. On the other hand, pretribulationists believe that the Bible indicates that tribulation during the future seven-years will be something that has never been seen before, it will be the judgment from God upon a Christ-rejecting world. What has been going on since the founding of the Church about two thousand years ago has been the animosity of Satan, his demons and the hatred of the unbelieving world, not the wrath of God.
The Tribulation
The tribulation, which is spoken of dozens of times with various labels like "day of the Lord," time of "wrath," "the tribulation," etc., is mentioned throughout the Bible. Some of the many references include passages throughout almost all of the prophets, the Olivet Discourse (Matt. 24:4, 28; Mark 13:3, 23), and most of the Book of Revelation (4-19). That time is referred to throughout Revelation as the wrath of the Lamb or God. Note the following: "the wrath of the Lamb" (6:16); "for the great day of their wrath has come" (6:17); [God's] "Thy wrath" (11:18); "he will also drink of the wine of the wrath of God" (14:10); "and threw them into the great wine press of the wrath of God" (14:19); "seven plagues, which are the last, because in them the wrath of God is finished" (15:1); "seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God" (15:7); "Go and pour out the seven bowls of the wrath of God into the earth" (16:1); "Babylon the great was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of His fierce wrath" (16:19); "He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God" (19:15).
It is quite clear in the biblical text that tribulation is a time of God's wrath, not of mankind or of Satan. Scripture speaks of some episodes of Satan and the world against God's people, but the emphasis is clearly upon the wrath of God throughout. In fact, throughout the tribulation there is first a fourth of the earth's population that is killed (Rev. 6:8), then a third is killed (Rev. 9:18), and finally, by the end, all unbelievers are killed (Matt. 13:40, 43; 25:31, 46; Rev. 19:11, 16). Obviously, these passages speak of a time unlike anything that has ever happened throughout the Church Age. Kept from the Hour
Clearly the New Testament teaches that the Church will be kept from the time of God's wrath. Paul, in one of his earliest epistles makes note of this fact as follows:
"...and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who delivers us from the wrath to come" (1 Thess. 1:10).
In the same epistle he says,
"For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thess. 5:9).
Paul assumes the much used Old Testament term "wrath" to mean what it does in the Old Testament, which is the time of God's wrath or the tribulation period when God's wrath will be poured out upon the earth. Thus, these two passages, which speak of a future time different than the current Church Age which they were in, clearly see that wrath occurring during the tribulation. Therefore, the Thessalonian believers and all Church Age believers have a promise from God that we will not experience the wrath of God. A similar point is made from Paul's statement in Romans 5:9.
Revelation 3:10 says,
"Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell upon the earth."
This promise made to the Church of Philadelphia and thus all believers throughout the Church Age promises that we will be kept out of the time of the tribulation. This passage has very clear pre-trib implications. The "hour" or "time" of testing is what believers will be kept from. Further, the hour of testing is said to be something that will in the future come upon the whole earth. Thus, it is clear that it is not something that has happened during the days of the Church Age, since no one knows of a global testing that came upon the whole earth since the first century. John speaks in this passage of the tribulation period, which is clearly a time in which the Lord will test the earth dwellers (always persistent unbelievers throughout Revelation) and not Church Age believers. The passage makes it clear that the present Church Age is when the Church is being tested and that is the reason given for why we will be exempted from the time period when God will test the earth dwellers during the period we know as the tribulation.
Conclusion
The Bible distinguishes between trials and tribulations that are destined to occur to Believers during the Church Age from the wrath of God, which will be poured out during the tribulation that is intended for the world. To say that the Church will go through the tribulation because the Bible predicts that Believers will experience tribulation is an erroneous statement in light of the Bible's distinction between present and future tribulation. It is also more likely for an American, who has not experience persecution yet, to think that we must, since America has a different history in relation to Christianity than is common throughout the Church Age.
I have often heard Dr. Ed Hindson make an excellent analogy concerning this issue. He says that having the Church, which is pictured in the New Testament as the Bride of Christ, go through the tribulation is like a man taking a girl to whom he is engaged and beating her to the point of near death and then saying, "Hey babe, let's get married." Such behavior would rightly be thought to be crazy. The New Testament clearly teaches that Christ marries the Bride in heaven (Rev. 19:7-10) before she accompanies Him to earth. She is already in heaven since she was raptured before the tribulation in order to experience the judgment seat of Christ during the tribulation. Therefore she is ready, married and victoriously returning to earth at the second coming with Christ (Rev. 19:11-21). Only the pre-trib scenario makes sense of the details, thus demonstrating that the belief that the Church needs to go through the wrath of the tribulation is a false conclusion. Maranatha!
Endnotes
[1] Gerald B. Stanton, Kept from the Hour: A Systematic Study of the Rapture in Bible Prophecy (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1956), pp. 33-34.
I fully believe they will (depending upon their works) - some of the patrons already have (i.e., first fruits and more). You can call it "under the law" if you wish. It means the same - keeping the Almighty's commandments - not manmade edicts.
No one will enter heaven at the second coming, who is not of Yeshua however. I believe that is were the confusion started and propagated by those who don't fully understand that which is written.
Will discuss #379 more with you later. I have to go do some chores for now...
>> “I guess what else I’m asking is if the Gentiles who are being saved by faith in Christ, through the new covenant, are of the bloodline of the House of Israel.” <<
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First, there is no “new” covenant, Yeshua renewed the only covenant there is with his perfect sinless blood.
As to the ancestry of Yeshua’s sheep, there are many clues, but we need to leave it up to Yehova to show us in his good time. We could debate ourselves into melted butter and not resolve it to everyone’s satisfaction.
Yehova has a plan; give thanks!
>> “Nah, they lost me at Isaiah 52, when I was told to read it and tell them who the barren woman was. Nevermind that that was in Isaiah 50, after I read 52 about several times..!” <<
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I know the feeling.
Why else the dispersion, predicted by YHWH to pass through ALL the nations? Judah was dispersed too - but Judah remained insular. I really think their purpose is to guard the Oracles of YHWH, particularly the Torah (which is KEY), and to guard the ancient culture, which also is declared by YHWH to rise again. Ephraim however, was totally subsumed in the nations - He doesn't even know he is Hebrew anymore (predicted by YHWH) He has lost his way. So what is left as the purpose of YHWH for leaving Ephraim unforgiven all this time, but to seed the nations with him? In the end, I expect we will all find out that we are all literally brothers, as much as we are brothers in Messiah.
If the house of Israel was dispersed among the Gentiles, that would make sense.
Another instance of the wheat and the tares?
Luke 22:20 And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.
1 Corinthians 11:25 In the same way also he took the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.”
2 Corinthians 3:5-7 Not that we are sufficient in ourselves to claim anything as coming from us, but our sufficiency is from God, who has made us sufficient to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
Hebrews 8:6-13 But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second.
For he finds fault with them when he says:
“Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt. For they did not continue in my covenant, and so I showed no concern for them, declares the Lord.
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall not teach, each one his neighbor and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest. For I will be merciful toward their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more.”
In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
Hebrews 9:15 Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.
Hebrews 12:22-24 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.
Thanks.....
That answers my question.
>> “Your entire premise leaves out the prophesy of Daniel and the 490 years assigned to Israel.” <<
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Not Israel, assigned to Daniel’s people.
I believe that would be the House of Juda.
>> “That entire seven year period is called “the day of the Lord” as He is once again directing all activities.” <<
Actually, none of it is “the Day of the Lord.” The Day of the Lord begins right at the end of Daniel’s 70th week.
The first half of that week is a period of geo-physical, and economic upheavals on earth framed in the 6th seal, causing the leaders of the world to go hide in their bunkers under the great mountain ranges, thus calling on the rocks to hide them. This period destroys the continuity of all of the governments of the world, allowing Antichrist to rise to power.
The second half is the tribulation, beginning when Satan is cast out and Antichrist stands on the mercy seat of the Ark, and claims to be God.
The end of the trib begins The Day of The Lord, with the first resurrection, and then the pouring out of the wrath on the Earth.
The “Last Trump” of Revelation is the last trump (a traditional term) of Yom Teruah, which comes at the first day of the seventh biblical month.
Once Antichrist does his big thing on the Ark, then yes, we know the next date for sure, 1290 days after Purim. (if we are Wise Virgins, who are learned in the feasts of Yehova)
I believe the White horse to be the Merovingian take-over of Europe, culminating in the dominance of the former British colonies (still actually under the crypto-dominance of the British Crown) The Red horse is the period of great wars, beginning early in the 20th century, to the present. Famine and disease has increased since that period began also.
We have the sixth seal yet to unfold before the trib can begin. It will be the catalyst of world tyranny that comes under Antichrist.
Absolutely not.
The “new” is a clumsy mis-translation of the English bibles, demanded by the replacement theology of the RCC and its Calvinist offspring.
I’ve heard that one before.
Got more than your say so?
What good is it right now, to be a Jew or a Gentile? There is no difference right now. The middle wall of partition has been removed, to make of Himself of twain, one new man. It profits no one to be a national identity. Nations aren't involved in this, individuals are. Of course, that will change when the tribulation begins and the middle wall of partition is back up, but we won't be here. We will have been raptured and taken to OUR promised place, the heavenlies.
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Paul disagrees:
Rom.3[1] What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
[2] Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
What are these 'oracles?' And what is so good about them?
All of the copies of the Gospel of Matthew in the original Hebrew call for the renewed covenant, not a new covenant.
Were it not a renewed covenant, he would have to have had to have re-instituted the Torah, rather than stating that it was to remain.
THIS is EXACTLY what "But NOW" of Eph. 2:13 explains. It is also what the MYSTERY is all about. "If ye have heard of the Dispensation of the grace of God which IS GIVEN ME TO YOU-WARD: how that by REVELATION He made known to me, THE MYSTERY...which IN OTHER AGES was NOT MADE KNOWN UNTO THE SONS OF MEN as it is NOW REVEALED UNTO HIS HOLY APOSTLES AND PROPHETS BY THE SPIRIT. That the GENTILES SHOULD BE FELLOWHEIRS, and OF THE SAME BODY and PARTAKERS OF HIS PROMISE IN CHRIST BY THE GOSPEL...and to make all men see what is THE FELLOWSHIP OF THE MYSTERY, which FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE WORLD hath been HID IN GOD who created all things by Jesus Christ." (Eph. 3:2,3,5,6,9).
And if you keep reading Eph. 2, you will find that He abolished the enmity, the middle wall of partition that separated Jews and Gentiles, to make of them ONE NEW MAN. Where there is neither Jew nor Gentile. It is by the Cross that He abolished the wall that separated us. We are now equal in the Body of Christ.
Well, in the Greek, in Luke 22:20 the word new is kainos: new, fresh.
http://biblesuite.com/greek/2537.htm
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: kainos
Short Definition: fresh, new
Definition: fresh, new, unused, novel.
2537 kainos – properly, new in quality (innovation), fresh in development or opportunity – because “not found exactly like this before.”
Your turn to try again.
I don’t need to try again. Original language of Yeshua beats pagan copies any day. It fits the rest of the scriptures better too.
You really contradict yourself and scripture. The “day of the Lord” includes all of the events in Revelation. There are dozens of verses that show that. I will include some samples first.
Ezekiel 30: 3 For the day is near, even the day of the LORD is near, a cloudy day; it shall be the time of the heathen.
Isaiah 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
Then there is the clear indication that you are totally wrong about the “day of the Lord” not being untill “the end of the trib”.
Isaiah 2:17 And the loftiness of man shall be bowed down, and the haughtiness of men shall be made low: and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day. 18 And the idols he shall utterly abolish. 19 And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.”.
Joel 2:30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. 31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD come. 32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call. Looking at Revelation 6 we can clearly see the “day of the Lord” has started.
Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
And another.
Isaiah 2:20 In that day a man shall cast his idols of silver, and his idols of gold, which they made each one for himself to worship, to the moles and to the bats; 21 To go into the clefts of the rocks, and into the tops of the ragged rocks, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth. And the fulfillment in Revelation 6 long before your contention of “The end of the trib begins The Day of The Lord”.
Revelation 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? Once again, scripture clearly shows your contentions to be in error.
>> I believe the White horse to be the Merovingian take-over of Europe, culminating in the dominance of the former British colonies (still actually under the crypto-dominance of the British Crown) The Red horse is the period of great wars, beginning early in the 20th century, to the present.<<
You can believe what you want. But as shown so often now what you believe does not line up with what scripture teaches.
Paul was not using any past tense in Romans 3.
What does “partakers in Christ by the Gospel” mean to you?
The gospel has to be complete, not picked over to get to the tasty part.
And back a few pages in this thread, when I asserted that there was one body and one covenant, you and CB were telling me that was not so, that the Jews had a separate calling in the millenium.
Which is it?
I would say that everything on earth is a representation of the truth in Heaven. Ergo, I think New Jerusalem has always been there. I get that we think she lies barren, But it was the Israel that was set aside, not New Jerusalem. It was Israel that shamed herself, and was divorced, not New Jerusalem... What enemies have or will come up against New Jerusalem? It just doesn't track.
And is it indeed barren? Christians tend to ignore the feasts, and fail to realize that the first harvest has already occurred. It is Paradise that lies empty. Whether those saints dwell in the new city is not known.
Speculation. There may be some of that [...]
Some? Calculate. Tens of thousands (some say hundreds of thousands) of men (not counting the women). What, 2300 years? The math is astronomical. Even assuming a high rate of attrition, it is almost an impossibility that a Hebrew mother is not somewhere in your very own bloodline.
[...] but when Christ sent Paul those Gentiles were not descendents of the Israelites.
I would agree if you are speaking of patriarchal terms, because the world thinks in patriarchal terms - but the matriarchy is nearly impossible to trace. women sold as slaves, bought as wives, subsumed into every conquering culture, taking the name of the husband... Whole families changing their names to avoid persecution... Hebrew heritage disappears, because the inheritance is of no value. It is nearly impossible to state plainly that those gentiles in Paul's time had *no* Hebrew blood.
And even so, it is incidental, as Paul was sent specifically to the gentiles. What of the other 11? Most of their ministries are utterly unknown, not to mention the ministries of their disciples...
That’s a curious statement inserted here. Tell me, do you believe the “church” took the place of Israel under the New Covenant or not?
The Ekklesia was present with Abraham before Melchizedek, was baptized in the red sea, and was at Sinai when the commandments were handed down...
And yet God separates out 12,000 from each of the twelve tribes during the tribulation which is the seven years God deals specifically with the Israelites as a nation and His people again according to the 490 years prophesied in Daniel. So yes, there is still a separation.
Where are the tribes? - And as I have said previously, I don't adhere to the dispensational view of Daniel.
But you haven't posted any links or sources to support your claims.
I don't accept unsupported claims from anyone, including you.
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