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Hello again. We're both back at home again. Hoping we can keep it that way, but you never know what life is going to throw at you.

"How did you arrive at the opinion that if God were actively directing all elements of His universe, this must mean there is no '…real point'?"
In your first post, you used the analogy of an author holding a book in his hands, being able to see it all played out at one time. Then you said this cannot be the situation since, "…the characters in the book and film are scripted. In our case, we have free will granted to us by His providence." Would the book or film have no "real point" since it is scripted?

I'll take the second point first, what I was saying that the example given is a metaphor to assist us in envisioning the manner in which God, being outside of time/space could observe the entirety of creation from beginning to end. I said the metaphor breaks down, as almost all metaphors do, and was anticipating objection of the case set forth because actors in a film, or characters in a book are scripted. I do not believe we are scripted in that way, I was pointing out that the metaphor was an imperfect one, and obviously a gross simplification of the universe and our place in it. I don't think we can really fully conceptualize what it would be like without duration, cause or effect.

As to the first, I'd think it was pretty self-explanatory. What would be the purpose of our existence if we had no input or control over our actions? What purpose to you see in a life where you have no control over your actions? Is the Lord bound by this determinism?

You noted, "I think it’s dangerous to start saying the (that) God would not, or could not do something." Yet, can we then assume that you believe you are in a position to determine that God could not create and manage every detail of a universe without it being, "…devoid of any real meaning."?

I didn't say that I never do dangerous things. I simply can find no meaning or purpose in a deterministic universe. If I must do A, B, and C, then what does it matter that I did A, B, and C?

"If you are looking at deep space through Hubble’s imaging, and you are noticing the enormity of the mind containing this existence, just how big is the God of Israel, the God of heaven & earth?"

Bigger than anything we can possibly imagine.

"Could the upholding be a continual maintenance? Can you feel being maintained? Must I be able to sense it or therefore I am certain His maintenance does not exist? What exactly does the Scriptures say about “free will” vs. “divine determinism”? Is this not a crucial piece of the puzzle?

I'm interested in your answer to these questions.

First, I am happy to hear you folks are back home. Hope your wife continues to improve. Now to your remarks.

"I'm interested in your answer to these questions.

What exactly does the Scriptures say about “free will” vs. “divine determinism”? Is this not a crucial piece of the puzzle?"

I assume that you meant the questions just preceding your remark, so I will address those.

The Scriptures set out a complete and total divine determinism. I can find no argument in it that allows for beings (or any other occurance) to be free from the direct influence of God's control.

But, here there seems to be a very interesting treatment of the Scriptures among believers. If the Bible said something like, "God does absolutely everything." and then followed it up with, "You need to follow Him.", the majority seem to understand the second statement as "softening" the first. That is, while they may acknowledge that there is a statement of complete control, the fact that God requests something from them counteracts the first statement and changes their view to a place where He is NOT controlling everything. They take the second statement to mean something like, "I know He said He controls everything, but now I see that He allows some areas of no control."

I believe this is a misunderstanding. Perhaps more strongly, it is essentially poor hermeneutics (interpretive principles). We may need to discuss this further, but let me give you an example.

Proverbs 16:33

"The lot (singular for dice) is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the Lord."

Now, is Solomon disclosing as Scriptural truth that there is no such thing as a "random" event? Is he getting at the fact that the most chance-appearing activity (rolling dice) has God controlling the outcome? It seems that he is.

Proverbs 21:1

"The king's heart is like channels of water in the hand of the Lord; He turns it wherever He wishes."

Is Solomon (the king) noticing that his own heart has been being maneuvered by God to take him wherever God wants? It seems so.

Proverbs 20:24

"Man's steps are ordained (planned and directed) by the Lord. How then can man understand his way?"

Is Solomon identifying the fact that while he cannot feel God forming the thoughts of his plans in his mind, he realizes that God is maneuvering him. And the idea of this is inscrutible to Solomon. It is baffling, yet he sees it is true.

Here are just a few more which seem to address the massive control God is exercising over the activities, thoughts, behaviors of man (and the enviornment):

Job 37 – 41

Job 42:2

Jer. 32:17

Prov. 16:9

Is. 45:1

Prov. 16:4

Dan 4:35

Job 14:5

Phil 3:12

Eph. 2:10 Ex 4:11

Ex. 35:35

James 4:13-15

Lam. 3:37-38

Is. 53:10

Acts 4:27-28

I Kings 22:19-23

I Sam 16:14-23

I Sam 18:10

I Sam 19:9

II Sam 24:1

1 Chronicles 21:1

I Cor. 14:33

Ex 14:24

Ex 23:27

Deut 7:23

Deut 28:20

II Thess 2:11

Rom 11:8

II Chron 34:24

Is 37:26

Amos 3:5

John 6:44

John 6:65

Isaiah 43:6-7

Rom 14:4

Jude 24, 25

Ephesians 1:11-12

Jeremiah 31:34ff

Phil 1:6

There are, of course, many more Scriptural situations where God is seen as moving hearts, changing minds, directing the men/women to act/think/believe.

But, here is sort of the big question: Where in Scripture does it tell us that we have "free will"? The word appears only once in Philemon (Where Paul asks Philemon to take his believing slave back of his own free will, but this is really about Paul not demanding that he do so. Paul does not address what God may be doing in the heart of Phil. to cause him to cooperate). A single word (freewill) is also used in the OT to describe some offerings to be made. But, here again, they only refer to offerings which are not prescribed on certain days, not what might cause a man to decide to make them.

As you can probably notice, the concept of "free will" is intimately associated with whether "predestination" and "foreknowledge". In Acts 2:22ff, Peter describes the most heinous sin of all time being directed specifically, precisely, completely by God. "...this Man, delivered up by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to the cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death."

Probably the greatest objection to "divine determinism" is that there seems to be no way to say that a man is actually guilty unless he acted without being manipulated by God. Hmmmmmm. Did we make that rule up? Where does God say, you can only be found guilty if you acted with "free will"?